What's Good About A Good Stroke?

...the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of OB
This would be correct if you said "at moment of contact with the cue ball. All the shot's objectives are either accomplished or not at that moment. If you stroked correctly (according to your aim and plan) but aimed or planned wrong, you'll miss. A good stroke doesn't mean you made the shot and got the desired CB position - it means you hit the CB the way you wanted to, which may be right or wrong for the shot.

pj
chgo
 
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expore other techniques that may produce better results

This deserves a thread of its own.

Best,
Mike

I think you're right, just started one. This information is vitally important to those that make a commitment to "not stay where they are, but expore other techniques that may produce better results". 'The Game is the Teacher'

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finely tuned and blended combination that produces the best results

One could also easily surmise that you are coming up with different techniques that work for YOU to make up for a less than perfectly straight stroke or alignment to start with.

I believe my statements are quite clear "these techniques DO work for me". Are you suggesting YOU have a perfectly straight stroke and alignment?

We humans are not perfect, pool playing machines that's why it's vitally important to to incorportate techniques that produce effective results.

The end result is a finely tuned and blended combination that produces the best results for us as individuals. I see no reason why everyone that applies themselves can't play as well as they desire. 'The Game is the Teacher'

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As Sean pointed out, a good stroke results in a consistent/controlled hit. The stroke has nothing to do with aiming, but a bad stroke with only make it less consistent.

Just because you get the right results by doing something wrong does not make it right. :shakehead:
 
I believe my statements are quite clear "these techniques DO work for me". Are you suggesting YOU have a perfectly straight stroke and alignment?

We humans are not perfect, pool playing machines that's why it's vitally important to to incorportate techniques that produce effective results.

The end result is a finely tuned and blended combination that produces the best results for us as individuals. I see no reason why everyone that applies themselves can't play as well as they desire. 'The Game is the Teacher'

33314807_ElJr6WJI_c.jpg

CJ, you want to pass along what works for you, great! Maybe it well help others on here too, and that is what most of us are after here...to get help, or to help. But....when you consistently say things like "advanced technique", and things like this is what separates the pros from the amateurs, ect, you come across as demeaning to anyone that doesn't play at your level and that you think that if we just all do what you say, we will all be great players. That just isn't so. Sorry.

There are things that separate the top pros from the rest of us. That is all in how their brain processes conscious vs. subconscious thought. THAT is the key, nothing else.

What you don't realize, is that while trying to help on here, you are taking the stance that "I do this, and I am a top player, so this is how it should be done, won't work for everyone, but try it anyways." What you fail to realize, is that a lot of these things are working for YOU and maybe 5% of the rest of us. They are little idiosyncrasies of YOUR stroke, that you have incorporated to make up for other little errors.

For others to try the same "correction", and have any success, would require them to also have the same initial problem that you do, whatever that is. If they don't happen to have the same initial problem, and odds are they don't, then they will be practicing something that will actually throw their stroke off even more than it is now. All because they want to religiously take any advice offered by a world champion. You could tell some that it is best to spin around once before getting down on the shot, and they would do it.

You ask if I have a perfectly straight stroke. Most of the time, yes. But not always. And, 99% of my misses are because of it. So, why don't I have a perfectly straight stroke everytime? Simple- I'm not playing for a living anymore, I play because it's in my blood now, but now it is just a hobby to me. Due to health reasons, I can no longer play for a long time, so trying to get "perfect" is pointless to me. However, I do take the time to find what works, and WHY it works, and then pass that info on to others.

Recently, I changed my stroke some again. I played some with Scott Lee a week or so ago, and maybe he caught it, maybe he didn't. We were just "knocking them around to get together", so he might not have even been paying any attention to my stroke or stance. But, recently, in an attempt to cut down bad delivery of the cue, I tried a different stance altogether. It felt very awkward at first, but I looked at the principles behind it, and with a week of work perfecting it, it is now habit. Today, my stroke is straighter consistently than it has ever been. I did it, by breaking down what is required to stroke straight, and incorporating only those things. Eliminating anything that was a "correction" to my stroking straight naturally.

As I have stated before, what separates the top players from the rest of us is their innate ability to use more of the subconscious during play. While the subconscious can be trained to assist at a pretty good level of play, to be tops requires use of the subconscious that the rest of us just don't have, and cannot obtain. Those people are the "naturals". The rest of us, we have to incorporate the easiest methods possible, and ingrain them into our subconsciousness. That takes time and hard work. More time and hard work than most are willing or able to do.

Bottom line CJ, are you interested in truly helping others play better by clarifying what is proven to work and will benefit the most people, and what is unique to your particular style of play which may actually hurt more people than it helps but is important enough to you to include in a post with that clarification?
 
this isn't for you, and be considerate of others trying to improve

Bottom line CJ,

Botton line, this isn't for you, and be considerate of others trying to improve.

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naji:
...the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of CB
With the change I made (substituting "CB" for your "OB"), this is correct. All the shot's objectives are either accomplished or not at that moment. If you stroked correctly (according to your aim and plan) but aimed or planned wrong, you'll miss. A good stroke doesn't mean you made the shot and got the desired CB position - it means you hit the CB the way you wanted to, which may be right or wrong for the shot.

pj
chgo
swest:
Well this may be semantic, then. I would contend that since your ability to influence what happens at the OB ends back when the tip contacts the CB, then that's where you measure the quality of your stroke.
I agree, and don't think it's semantic. I thought I was saying essentially what you said in your previous post: planning the shot (deciding what your shot objectives are and how you want to hit the CB to achieve them) and executing it (stroking) are distinct things that may or may not be in harmony. You can have perfect planning with horrible execution and vice verse.

pj
chgo
 
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Ya know CJ, I have taken everything to my table thats in your DVD and everything that you have posted.

I gotta tell ya you have helped me a bunch. Been playing for over 50 years and have never not listened to a pro suggest things that might improve my game. Back when I started playing in '63 no one would help you at all. I'm like a sponge when it comes to suggestions to making my game better.

Its not so much the game......its the fundementals and application.

Thanks for all that you share. :)

John
 
I agree, and don't think it's semantic. I thought I was saying essentially what you said in your previous post: planning the shot (deciding what your shot objectives are and how you want to hit the CB to achieve them) and executing it (stroking) are distinct things that may or may not be in harmony. You can have perfect planning with horrible execution and vice verse.

pj
chgo

Roger that. I questioned your last post because naji had said that "the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of OB", and I thought your position would have been, "the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of CB".
 
I gotta tell ya you have helped me a bunch. Been playing for over 50 years and have never not listened to a pro suggest things that might improve my game. Back when I started playing in '63 no one would help you at all. I'm like a sponge when it comes to suggestions to making my game better.

Its not so much the game......its the fundementals and application.

Thanks for all that you share. :)

John

I second that Mr. John, except I started in '66.

Keep it coming CJ. MOST of us are hungry for the 'food for thought'.

Thanks again,
 
Roger that. I questioned your last post because naji had said that "the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of OB", and I thought your position would have been, "the end result of a good stroke comes at moment of contact of CB".
Oops - you're right. I thought he said CB. I'll make a correction in my reply to him.

pj
chgo
 
As Sean pointed out, a good stroke results in a consistent/controlled hit. The stroke has nothing to do with aiming, but a bad stroke with only make it less consistent.

Just because you get the right results by doing something wrong does not make it right. :shakehead:

Bank i have to disagree here, aiming and stroke go together, say you want to hit a stun with RH english, (assuming for a second the cue deflection is not in the picture) we know the OB will throw so we aim accordingly, but if your stroke such that it rolled before you hit the OB (the sliding of cue ended before it touches the OB), then OB will not throw as much and might miss the shot (for OB long shot)
 
I also didn't want to "betray" the code, however, times have changed

Ya know CJ, I have taken everything to my table thats in your DVD and everything that you have posted.

I gotta tell ya you have helped me a bunch. Been playing for over 50 years and have never not listened to a pro suggest things that might improve my game. Back when I started playing in '63 no one would help you at all. I'm like a sponge when it comes to suggestions to making my game better.

Its not so much the game......its the fundementals and application.

Thanks for all that you share. :)

John

You're welcome. I get emails from people from different parts of the world that are improving and that makes it all worth while to me. The best techniques were selfishly kept secret years ago by the "Road Players" and top notch gamblers. I was one of them and I also didn't want to "betray" the code, however, times have changed. This information needs to get out and of course there's going to be resistance because it's not the same information commonly taught. I'm just teaching what I know and understand to be effective and "let the chips fall where thay may". 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Bank i have to disagree here, aiming and stroke go together, say you want to hit a stun with RH english, (assuming for a second the cue deflection is not in the picture) we know the OB will throw so we aim accordingly, but if your stroke such that it rolled before you hit the OB (the sliding of cue ended before it touches the OB), then OB will not throw as much and might miss the shot (for OB long shot)
All you're saying is that it takes both good aim and a good stroke to succeed. Interdependence doesn't = identity. The plan isn't part of the stroke.

The reason I'm so adamant about this is that adding unnecessary elements to the definition of a "good stroke" tends to cloud the reality that how the stroke affects the CB is very simple to understand and describe. There are no unobvious or mystical "qualities" in a good stroke - a simple mechanical shooting jig lke Iron Willy (the Predator jig used in some of the Jacksonville tests) can do everything with a cue ball that a pro can.

pj
chgo
 
You're welcome. I get emails from people from different parts of the world that are improving and that makes it all worth while to me. The best techniques were selfishly kept secret years ago by the "Road Players" and top notch gamblers. I was one of them and I also didn't want to "betray" the code, however, times have changed. This information needs to get out and of course there's going to be resistance because it's not the same information commonly taught. I'm just teaching what I know and understand to be effective and "let the chips fall where thay may". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Innovation_COPCradleLabels2.jpg.scaled1000.jpg

Sorry CJ I just have to say this post is almost laughable but for the fact you appear serious, trade secrets really now, just what are you trying to sell?

I could name a thousand players that have won more tournaments than you have ever entered that have never needed your trade secrets and best techniques :roflmao:

I am not trying to be confrontational but when I see blatant nonsense presented to the billiard community as fact it's just my nature to say hang on a minute there are children watching.
 
I'm sorry you feel that way

Sorry CJ I just have to say this post is almost laughable but for the fact you appear serious, trade secrets really now, just what are you trying to sell?

I could name a thousand players that have won more tournaments than you have ever entered that have never needed your trade secrets and best techniques :roflmao:

I am not trying to be confrontational but when I see blatant nonsense presented to the billiard community as fact it's just my nature to say hang on a minute there are children watching.

I'm sorry you feel that way

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