I think Scott Lee has it right (at least for me). Regardless of grip pressure you will never be able to feel the ball--you can only feel the cue stick's reaction to striking the ball and this reaction can be felt even with no grip pressure as long as the cue butt rests in a cupped hand. Great power and control are possible with fingers and wrist doing very little or nothing. Again, Efren's stroke has always been my model.
WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
I think Scott Lee has it right (at least for me). Regardless of grip pressure you will never be able to feel the ball--you can only feel the cue stick's reaction to striking the ball and this reaction can be felt even with no grip pressure as long as the cue butt rests in a cupped hand. Great power and control are possible with fingers and wrist doing very little or nothing. Again, Efren's stroke has always been my model.
It would be interesting to see the statistics on pro basketball players to see how many bounce the ball or spin the ball in their hands (taking 'practice strokes'), vs how many just stand and shoot, when shooting a free throw. I'm pretty sure it would be at least equal. In college, bouncing the ball, etc. (taking practice strokes) would win 4-1, because that's what they're taught. It's also interesting that every pro pool player out there (except perhaps you) seems to do some kind of practice strokes, before they shoot. If practice strokes were bad, why would they do them?
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
CJ...Then why were you doing them, on EVERY shot, in the Reno video of you and Miz that you posted? Have you changed your mind?
Scott Lee
http://poolknoweldge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknoweldge.com
Scott, I think you'll find that well more than 50% of the NBA players do something other than just take the ball and shoot it. Regardless, the vast majority have some type of PSR. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find one that doesn't have a PSR. Basketball is different than pool, their PSR may not include bouncing the ball or spinning it but I guarantee you, in their head, they're going through a PSR.
Next thing you know, CJ will be claiming golfers on the PGA Tour don't have PSR's. I'd like to know of a PGA player that doesn't use a consistent PSR. Golf is certainly a lot more similar to pool than basketball is.
Well, Mark...I'm clearly confused. In one post CJ says don't do practice strokes, and yet in another post where he puts a link to him playing the Miz 20 yrs ago, he does two practice strokes on every shot for an hour. Which one is he advocating?
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I guess that's a bit of a compliment. Although, conviction alone is not worth very much.
But...if one is going to do anything, it should be done with conviction. Doubt, 2nd. guessing & hesitation usually do not have good results associated with them.
So...thanks for the compliment, I guess.
Have a good evening.
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Using the wrist to create a slot/track/guide to my cue
Thank you CJ. This single sentence provided me with the ah ha moment.
"I believe in using the wrist to create a slot/track/guide to my cue so it NEVER goes off line."
Not sure if I am doing it as you or anyone else for that matter but you provided the catalyst to get me back on track for what works for me. Thanks again.
Thank you CJ. This single sentence provided me with the ah ha moment.
"I believe in using the wrist to create a slot/track/guide to my cue so it NEVER goes off line."
Not sure if I am doing it as you or anyone else for that matter but you provided the catalyst to get me back on track for what works for me. Thanks again.
I"m glad to hear that you're "back on track"
I"m glad to hear that you're "back on track". :wink: Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions or comments. CJ
I"m glad to hear that you're "back on track". :wink: Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions or comments. CJ
Something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxEcHLeoYwQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=26s
Best,
Mike
Best,
Mike
Looks good to me.
With the wrist locked to prevent any sideways movement of the wrist your stroke can be grooved with just using the fingers. The fingers provide the speed to push the cue thru the cue ball.
The hammer action in Corey's stroke is very apparent.
Thanks for the link.
John
and a vocabulary lesson for 2nd graders to boot!
Just a couple of things that have jumped out at me from this interesting thread:
1. Practice strokes and measuring the tip to the cue ball aren't really the same thing. Maybe this is what CJ is referring to here. I've noticed that I don't really do as many "practice strokes" as I used to. Now I really just measure the tip to the cue ball and fire. There are a lot of players that don't really do the traditional practice stroke thing. Someone doing a practice stroke when faced with a long draw shot for instance, will sort of practice that draw shot during their warmup, before they pull the trigger. Other people will just measure the tip to the cue ball a couple of times and then pull the trigger, no real practice strokes. I think Alex Pagulayan is a good example of someone who doesn't really do a lot of practice strokes, he does more of the measuring thing.
Hope that made sense.
2. I think a lot of people (myself included) sort of think that the wrist is more involved in the power strokes than it actually is because we have to HOLD ONTO the cue stick on these power shots, so there's a natural tendency to grab the cue at the conclusion of the shot in order to avoid watching the cue go sailing through the air and hitting someone at the next table. This grabbing motion and an actual wrist snap aren't exactly the same thing, I don't think. I try to avoid getting the wrist involved as much as I can.
1. Practice strokes and measuring the tip to the cue ball aren't really the same thing. Maybe this is what CJ is referring to here. I've noticed that I don't really do as many "practice strokes" as I used to. Now I really just measure the tip to the cue ball and fire. There are a lot of players that don't really do the traditional practice stroke thing. Someone doing a practice stroke when faced with a long draw shot for instance, will sort of practice that draw shot during their warmup, before they pull the trigger. Other people will just measure the tip to the cue ball a couple of times and then pull the trigger, no real practice strokes. I think Alex Pagulayan is a good example of someone who doesn't really do a lot of practice strokes, he does more of the measuring thing.
Hope that made sense.
2. I think a lot of people (myself included) sort of think that the wrist is more involved in the power strokes than it actually is because we have to HOLD ONTO the cue stick on these power shots, so there's a natural tendency to grab the cue at the conclusion of the shot in order to avoid watching the cue go sailing through the air and hitting someone at the next table. This grabbing motion and an actual wrist snap aren't exactly the same thing, I don't think. I try to avoid getting the wrist involved as much as I can.
It's apparent that his wrist bends that way because of his pronounced elbow drop (like many players who drop their elbows). There's no special "action".
pj
chgo
Clenching the fingers at the end of the stroke can bring them forward a little, which can add a little speed to the stroke. But the likelihood of pulling the tip offline is much greater than the likelihood that the small amount of extra speed will really help. It's the main reason I've developed a "pinch" grip that avoids doing it (sounds like you do too).
pj
chgo
I'm trying to get this and the idea of creating a slot to keep the cue stroke straight.
Whey you say "driving a nail with a hammer," the motions are so vastly different that I almost think you really mean you're using a reverse hammer fist. Is that what you mean?
And if you go forward and downward, is that what you attempt to do, or is this what is really happening (because wouldn't the tip then fly upwards?).
In this video at 2 minutes, there's a nice side view of you stroking. Other than your index finger doing something different than others, I don't see your wrist moving down, up or hammering. And I don't think your movement is so subtle that the video can't catch it, but I could be wrong. It looks like your wrist is still. {edit: I think I'm wrong about the wrist and that the video can't catch it. I just watched the shot 20 times and sometimes there's obvious wrist motion and other times it looks dead still. I think the video and playback can't show it consistently}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY#t=2m
Freddie <~~~ looking to keep my stroke locked in a slot
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I'm more of a back-fingered cradle guy myself, like Sean Fleinen describes here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3510508#post3510508
Look at this view. His wrist does more down and forward movement before his elbow drops. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY&feature=player_detailpage#t=214s
Best,
Mike
Looks that way to me, too - the wrist looks locked all the way through. That "power catalyst", if it exists, is very well hidden. But locking the wrist does prevent "bad" wrist movement, like CJ says (and like lots of other players, pro and amateur alike, commonly do).
The accomplishments sure do! But the descriptions sure don't.
pj
chgo
