WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Spimp13 said:
Going back a ways I am curious on the non practice stroke approach (not trying to derail thread). Have members on here tried that? I have always used some form of a practice stroke. It is usually only 2-3 at most, but it has always been there as part of my process. Before I hit the basement to try no practice stroke for fun, just curious on other members feedback on here.
Click to expand...


The thing about practice strokes is that every player utilizes them a bit differently. For some guys it's to relax things; others are refining the hit; double checking their aim; or calibrating their speed. Others use the practice strokes to make adjustments to their grip and for others it's just something they do because they've always done it. Some for other reasons. One size does not fit all.

Lou Figueroa
 
dorabelle said:
I changed my preshot routine a while ago and got rid of my multiple practice strokes and I wont go back. To me it feels like I cleaned up my stroke and made it simpler. I also got rid of the pause in my back stroke. Simple clean smooth stroke. This works for me, each to their own.
Click to expand...


I think the key is to take as many practice strokes as you need. No more, no less.

Lou Figueroa
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.

The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.

Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.

I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.

For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.

The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'
shane-van-boening-ts.jpg
catalyst.jpg
Click to expand...

Great insights CJ. Thank you. Kind of like the old school of learning pool... the best players found it "reasonable" not to share secrets so no one could beat them and take their money. But by you sharing many of your secrets, you will make more money 100 times over than they could have ever dreamed of making with their "action." And you help 1,000's of players derive more joy from the game.
 
lfigueroa said:
The thing about practice strokes is that every player utilizes them a bit differently. For some guys it's to relax things; others are refining the hit; double checking their aim; or calibrating their speed. Others use the practice strokes to make adjustments to their grip and for others it's just something they do because they've always done it. Some for other reasons. One size does not fit all.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Well said...maybe on the flip side of the coin positives could be that doing no practice stroke keeps the action quicker pace so I won't second guess myself so much doing multiple practice strokes, fresher legs, would keep you less tired as a whole etc...

Usually (not always), when I do practice strokes the decision is already done. If I change it, I step back and then start over. I guess this could be good if I make good shot decisons, and bad if I make soso decisons at the table and the practice strokes allow me to potentially catch them.
 
Spimp13 said:
Thanks for the reply. I would like more input for people who have tried the "no practice stroke" way.

Let's just assume, you are a player that every time from the moment you examine the table and have a game plan on your next 3 shots in advance what you are going to do. IF you are able to get in your stance correctly, line up the shot (every time), and hit the exact spot you are aiming every time with a fluid stroke, is the no practice stroke a bad thing?
Click to expand...

I do it when I want to force myself not to be so lazy. When I get lazy, I don't line up correctly. You get back up off of the shot and reset. No last second panic or subconscious steering. You make yourself stroke through the shot with no second guessing. If you're doggin' it, you learn real quick about a bad alignment. Simple, but effective.

Best,
Mike
 
lfigueroa said:
The thing about practice strokes is that every player utilizes them a bit differently. For some guys it's to relax things; others are refining the hit; double checking their aim; or calibrating their speed. Others use the practice strokes to make adjustments to their grip and for others it's just something they do because they've always done it. Some for other reasons. One size does not fit all.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Or in my case, it's all of the above. Put another way, you could say that all sizes fit one (me). :grin-square:

Roger
[Don't even THINK of taking my practice strokes away!]
 
Spimp13 said:
Well said...maybe on the flip side of the coin positives could be that doing no practice stroke keeps the action quicker pace so I won't second guess myself so much doing multiple practice strokes, fresher legs, would keep you less tired as a whole etc...

Usually (not always), when I do practice strokes the decision is already done. If I change it, I step back and then start over. I guess this could be good if I make good shot decisons, and bad if I make soso decisons at the table and the practice strokes allow me to potentially catch them.
Click to expand...


Well, here's something else to consider: practice strokes can be used as an important "tell."

The trick is to step outside yourself and note what going on when you're playing well -- one of the things to check are your practice strokes. Chances are they they will have distinct characteristics when you're playing well and different ones again when you're not. Those characteristics would include the pace and number of strokes and perhaps just how they feel to you. This can be highly useful information in adding consistency to your game.

Lou Figueroa
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Someone said Tiger Wood's golf coach, Hank Haney wasn't a good player, but I played with him and he shot under par, and he told me he actually beat Tiger one time (shooting 3 under par), but Tiger averaged 5 under, so this was a "one time" occurance. Still, no one can say Hank can't play golf, it's simply not the case at all.

Pool's not a difficult game and I always wondered why people that have the knowledge can't play that well. Maybe it's their nerves or some deep psychological thing, I never really figured it out. The teachers I would go to if I had problems with my game would be Buddy Hall, Hunter Lombardo, Danny D. or Max Eberle. They, in the inner circle of Teaching Professionals are the best in my opinion. Wade Crane influenced me as well. R.I.P. Billy Johnson (Wade Crane). Wade knew a LOT about the game and had learned from so many of the legendary champions, and was just a class act.

I was around Hal Mix quite a bit 20 years ago as well. He showed my the key to setting up to use english without it effecting my aim. Like I said earlier, a championship game is a "blend" of the finest elements you pick up, both consciously and subconsciously. I'm grateful it all came together.

I did some training (to tune up my body angles) with Buddy last year and Hunter this year. Max and I have done a great deal of talking about the "Mental Side" of pocket billiards and he has some key insights in this area as well. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

I was fortunate to get a lesson from Buddy! What a nice guy who is a great player with tons of knowledge!! He makes the game look so easy!! Trouble is, with those big hands of his, it's hard to see how he uses his grip hand when he's stroking. I think he is just a naturally gifted athlete!! Super nice guy too!!
He gave me some great tips on body alignment too!
 
Too many people think in terms of the arm in the stroke, when it's the hand

gregcantrall said:
The little thing that got me started was when CJ was talking about "the slot". That brought to my mind the way my thumb and index finger, when parallel form a slot. The second thing that really got me going was when he spoke of holding the cue with the fingers. I realized that I had been working so hard on keeping my body still and only my shooting arm moving on the stroke that I had taken my fingers out of the equation and they were just holding the cue and simply along for the ride. So ..... I started practicing with the swing thought of putting my fingers in control of the stroke. Oh yea.....it works so much better for me. I have so much more control of whitey when I put my fingers in charge. Along with more power available for draw and stroke shots.

When I was in my 20's I played a lot of ping pong using a pen holder grip. That taught me how much power and control I can produce with just a quick flip of the wrist and fingers.
Click to expand...

This is aligning to what I've been suggesting. Too many people think in terms of the arm in the stroke, when it's the hand that controls the cue and gives you the FEEL for the game. I know the arm is part of it, but I have NEVER thought about my arm and had good results.

This is why talking about "pendulum strokes" is so funny to me. In the way I play pool the arm is something I pre set ABOVE the ball and never think about it again. The Wrist/Hand/Fingers are the key to my stroke, and pre setting the wrist angles (cocking my gun) is important and the point of this thread.

When we pick something up or "feel something" we do it with our fingers. My position entirely through this thread is to show and suggest a way to maximize this process. This also compacts the stroke and limits the moving parts that can "mis fire" and those, in my opinion are in the arm.

By the way, when I say practice strokes I'm referring to those "sawing motions" that are nearly as big as the players regular stroke. I prefer to "MEASURE UP" to the ball, like a basketball player getting ready to shoot a free throw. You wouldn't see them take the ball with a big motion several times before they shoot and I don't think it's wise for a pool player to do that either.

Just some smaller "pushes toward the cue ball", MEASURING UP (is what I've always called it) to the cue ball to a PRECISE point before taking one confident stroke, extending my tip through the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Last edited:
Buddy has one of the best cue deliveries in the history of the sport

Rickw said:
I was fortunate to get a lesson from Buddy! What a nice guy who is a great player with tons of knowledge!! He makes the game look so easy!! Trouble is, with those big hands of his, it's hard to see how he uses his grip hand when he's stroking. I think he is just a naturally gifted athlete!! Super nice guy too!!
He gave me some great tips on body alignment too!
Click to expand...

Yes, Buddy has one of the best cue deliveries in the history of the sport. I worked with him extensively 2 years ago to "get back on track". I've always loved Buddy's game and played him MANY times (in the finals two tournaments in a row one week), and we've practiced together in Tampa when we both lived there.

He has POWERFUL hands and if you watch his stroke you see very little effort. He pauses before he brings the cue forward (and I highly advise this, "the gathering of the stroke") and his wrist/hand/finger motion produces a "compact power".

This produces maximum accuracy and cue ball control, with a very simple motion. Notice he ALWAYS angles his cue slightly down towards the BOTTOM of the cue ball and keeps that angle. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
So I know this thread is getting off track somewhat, but in the interest of posting something relevant to the title, this is a quick video I made of the grip and stroke I have been using for a few weeks now. This is not an attempt to 'try' CJs method, but rather I read this post and realized that the grip I thought I had 'discovered' was very similar to what CJ described as his.

Does this look like what CJ is describing?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yep. And not just about physical things like setting up precisely. It also teaches quick focusing, which means longer focus when shooting normally.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


It's funny.

Sometimes at the dinner table I describe to my wife the latest things I've been working on as to my pool game, oft times using a knife as a pool cue and a folded dinner napkin as a table. And sometimes she'll say, "How do remember all that?" And I say, "It's kind of like diving off a high board. The first few times you toss yourself off you belly flop. But then, through time and diligent practice, you learn to make the moves and enter the water properly. Much later, you start working on your arms, hands, legs and feet. Maybe you eventually get to thinking about your toes and fingers..."

All of it happens in the same amount of time as the belly flop yet, somehow, there is "more" time to think about so much more.

Lou Figueroa
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
By the way, when I say practice strokes I'm referring to those "sawing motions" that are nearly as big as the players regular stroke. I prefer to "MEASURE UP" to the ball, like a basketball player getting ready to shoot a free throw. You wouldn't see them take the ball with a big motion several times before they shoot and I don't think it's wise for a pool player to do that either.

Just some smaller "pushes toward the cue ball", MEASURING UP (is what I've always called it) to the cue ball to a PRECISE point before taking one confident stroke, extending my tip through the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

This hits home with me as well. A couple of weeks ago I had some success at the Western BCA 9 ball in Lincoln City, OR. I won the Mens Senior division and the final match was recorded by rail2rail. In watching that recording I noticed that I was just taking small measuring strokes before shooting. This was something I was not doing consciously and when I saw the video I though maybe it was something I needed to fix. Well I tried practicing using full practice strokes and it did not work as well for me so i just gave up. Now I understand I had it right all along. :D

Anyone that is really bored here is a link to that recording. I start shooting a warm up rack at 1:50 as the Mens open is first then the Mens Seniors.
http://199.66.238.50/recorded/26092525

I achieved this success with my wrist and hand pretty much along for the ride. I can't wait to compete with my new wrist fingers stroke as I feel so much more in control of the cue ball. :)
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Yes, Buddy has one of the best cue deliveries in the history of the sport. I worked with him extensively 2 years ago to "get back on track". I've always loved Buddy's game and played him MANY times (in the finals two tournaments in a row one week), and we've practiced together in Tampa when we both lived there.

He has POWERFUL hands and if you watch his stroke you see very little effort. He pauses before he brings the cue forward (and I highly advise this, "the gathering of the stroke") and his wrist/hand/finger motion produces a "compact power".

This produces maximum accuracy and cue ball control, with a very simple motion. Notice he ALWAYS angles his cue slightly down towards the BOTTOM of the cue ball and keeps that angle. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Well whatever you do, don't have Buddy posting on this forum. He'll surely get unmasked by our pool instructors who are trying to protect us from faulty information. :smile:

CJ, even though you aren't my hero, I'm happy to see your contributions on here. Many of us will realize new insights to how pros think, even if you're a little off base. But if I were you, I"m afraid I wouldn't bother trying to teach anything. Look at how viscious some of the reactions have been. Why go through the trouble? Many other pros don't. Of course I'm from the old school that you (and Max) talked about, where many secrets of the game were unspoken and taken to the grave.

I don't agree with everything you say, but that's OK. Some things will click with me and other things will resonate with other folks tuning in. It seems most on here have enough experience to separate the useful from the useless. So if you tell us that you fall into dead stroke after kicking your dog all around the room, I think most of us will take a pass on that idea. I'm just going by the assumption that the masses are not asses. They can think for themselves, weigh the evidence and decide what's worthwhile.

I don't mean to knock the pool instructors here. I understand some of them are pretty good. But it's still great to hear from a pro every now and then. They have a very different perspective of the game than a lot of us do.
 
Last edited:
Pay Up Sucker said:
im curious as to who has actually tried at the table any of CJ's techniques and disliked them?
Click to expand...
I don't know about disliking them, I like them a lot! Like I said before, I started to use his "wrist thing" and no pre-stroke shooting advice and my game went up in less than a month( from a level 3 in apa to level 6) Prior to that I was always shooting on level 3, occasionally being bumped up to a 4 after one good night, but then always was coming back to 3.
Today I decided to try his "aiming with foot" method and - WOW - what a difference. I didn't miss at all the whole night, haven't missed a shot.I couldn't believe it. It felt awkward in the beginning, but after some time, I got used to it.
I played a couple of players of a lot higher caliber than me and they couldn't beat me. None of them believed me that I was a 6 and just started playing pool only a couple of years ago in my forties. All of them were playing for over 20 years.
I can only imagine what I can achieve if I continue to practice like that for a couple of months.
Thanks CJ, for your advice!!! I really appreciate that a player of your caliber is willing to share his secrets!
 
Roger Long said:
Or in my case, it's all of the above. Put another way, you could say that all sizes fit one (me). :grin-square:

Roger
[Don't even THINK of taking my practice strokes away!]
Click to expand...

Hey Roger,

You made me laugh! This thread isn't supposed to be funny! :grin-square:

Here's my take on the practice strokes. I practice with no practice strokes for an hour or two. This not my normal PSR in competition. It forces me to react more diligently when I do line up and not adjust after I get down on the shot.

In competition, I use the same idea, but I stroke after I measure up to the cue ball. Not more than 1 or 2 times, sometimes no stroke, but I let it happen without conscious thought.

Another point I can make is when I was at Best Billards in Las Vegas shooting with coach, Lee Brett. He talked about measuring up to the cue ball and unnecessary practice strokes. He told me many players sabotage their alignment when they take practice strokes before they measure up to the cue ball. It causes them to not set their bridge hand down in the correct spot with their initial alignment.

CJ confirmed this when he talked about top level players stroking while they are standing, but not much after they were down. I realized if I stroked my cue after I got down, but before I completed measuring up, I could actually move my bridge hand slightly. My subconscious mind would steer the cue to compensate and I wouldn't have a clue why I was missing.

After measuring up, careful or crazy stroking is not as much of a factor. Any of this sound plausible? BTW, the pool gods called and said you can keep your practice strokes...but only after you measure up to the cue ball! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top