WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Without "cocking" the wrist you have to supply more power with your arm

MSchaffer said:
So I know this thread is getting off track somewhat, but in the interest of posting something relevant to the title, this is a quick video I made of the grip and stroke I have been using for a few weeks now. This is not an attempt to 'try' CJs method, but rather I read this post and realized that the grip I thought I had 'discovered' was very similar to what CJ described as his.

Does this look like what CJ is describing?
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This is very good, and I would suggest you experiment with cocking your cue up a few inches (even if you cock the cue up two feet you still want to come down with your cue at the same angle as you have it here) so when you go through the ball your elbow/shoulder will stay more stable. Without "cocking" the wrist you have to supply more power with your arm which effects your simplicity of the motion. imho.
 
lfigueroa said:
He doesn't kill you with kindness -- he evades, obfuscates, and bamboozles. Ask him for a reasonable explanation of his theories and he responds like someone coming off the midnight shift at a fortune cookie factory.

Lou Figueroa
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I know you don't care for his style of posting. I took it as a way for him to keep his focus by "clowning'' a little to deflect the growing number of confrontations. He's no Bob Jewett, but his foray into the mental techniques and kinesiological awakening he has given this forum is most seminal.

What about you? Do you feel the wrist can be used in the pool stroke? You've def got game. Your opinion matters. Let's hear it.

Best,
Mike
 
The hand controls the cue, the cue controls the tip and the tip plays the game

8ballEinstein said:
Well whatever you do, don't have Buddy posting on this forum. He'll surely get unmasked by our pool instructors who are trying to protect us from faulty information. :smile:

CJ, even though you aren't my hero, I'm happy to see your contributions on here. Many of us will realize new insights to how pros think, even if you're a little off base. But if I were you, I"m afraid I wouldn't bother trying to teach anything. Look at how viscious some of the reactions have been. Why go through the trouble? Many other pros don't. Of course I'm from the old school that you (and Max) talked about, where many secrets of the game were unspoken and taken to the grave.

I don't agree with everything you say, but that's OK. Some things will click with me and other things will resonate with other folks tuning in. It seems most on here have enough experience to separate the useful from the useless. So if you tell us that you fall into dead stroke after kicking your dog all around the room, I think most of us will take a pass on that idea. I'm just going by the assumption that the masses are not asses. They can think for themselves, weigh the evidence and decide what's worthwhile.

I don't mean to knock the pool instructors here. I understand some of them are pretty good. But it's still great to hear from a pro every now and then. They have a very different perspective of the game than a lot of us do.
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I appreciate your attitude about this and if I explained why I bother trying to teach (as you put it), my explination would be "off base" as well. Sometimes, with me it's about the challenge and understanding why things are often not as they appear.

Hank Haney and I used to talk about that in terms of golf too. Hank broke the golf swing down into the basic components that Ben Hogan had indentified, then just cut away the wasted motions. This means that he had the wrists/hands/fingers, arms, shoulders, and hips doing ONLY what they need to do to accomplish the golf swing.

This was VERY controversial in the golf world and many "instructors" didn't want to accept it and they made fun of it for as long as people would listen to them.

Then a guy named Tiger Woods found out about it and wanted to simplify his swing and make it more consistant, without giving up power. He worked for 6 months and made the necessary changes and the rest is history. Now Hank's swing is recognized as the one of the best "models" possible. It's still challenging and time consuming to learn because the human body was not designed to play golf. Pool is physically much easier, so it's not an "apples to apples"comparison. It takes months to "restructure" your golf swing, but only weeks for your pool stroke.

The pool stroke is much easier to do these things because it's the wrists/hands/fingers that are the main components. I get emails talking about how these techniques are helping players from around the world and their games are improving in weeks, not months or years.

The Game of Pool will always be easy to learn and play at a high level, it's the human element of making things seem more complicated than they really are that makes it challenging. 'The Game is the Teacher'.
 
the ones that have to practice the most to maintain their games

Mikjary said:
Hey Roger,

You made me laugh! This thread isn't supposed to be funny! :grin-square:

Here's my take on the practice strokes. I practice with no practice strokes for an hour or two. This not my normal PSR in competition. It forces me to react more diligently when I do line up and not adjust after I get down on the shot.

In competition, I use the same idea, but I stroke after I measure up to the cue ball. Not more than 1 or 2 times, sometimes no stroke, but I let it happen without conscious thought.

Another point I can make is when I was at Best Billards in Las Vegas shooting with coach, Lee Brett. He talked about measuring up to the cue ball and unnecessary practice strokes. He told me many players sabotage their alignment when they take practice strokes before they measure up to the cue ball. It causes them to not set their bridge hand down in the correct spot with their initial alignment.

CJ confirmed this when he talked about top level players stroking while they are standing, but not much after they were down. I realized if I stroked my cue after I got down, but before I completed measuring up, I could actually move my bridge hand slightly. My subconscious mind would steer the cue to compensate and I wouldn't have a clue why I was missing.

After measuring up, careful or crazy stroking is not as much of a factor. Any of this sound plausible? BTW, the pool gods called and said you can keep your practice strokes...but only after you measure up to the cue ball! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike
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You are starting to really understand this Mike. I told everyone I could tell from the beginning is players were trying these techniques or not and it sounded "far out", but I think now you can understand what I meant. Until you experience these things for yourself you can't possible understand them, that's why it can't be "faked".

I explained my "No Practice Stroke Drill" back on one of my face book posts. This is the best one I know of for myself personally. I once played a guy for 3 hours taking NO PRACTICE STROKES and let me tell you it's difficult to do. After that I played three different people giving up the 5/7 and the Break and missed FOUR balls in the next 22 hours.

This sounds impossibe because it was on a triple shimmed table (if you're been to CJ's, it was the first table on the right as you walk in the door), and you had to HIT the center of the pocket (with a Touch of Inside/3Part Pocket System of course :wink:).

I know there's a few players reading this forum that used to hang out at my place and saw me do these drills and play these matches. When you don't use practice strokes you MUST come down better on the cue ball and you MUST know how to do it.

The pre shot routine is talked about a lot, but few people know how to pre set the body correctly. The top pros have a way of coming down on the shot that pre sets all their moving parts, their shoulders/arms/wrists/hands/fingers are all in exactly in the same place in relation to the "Line of the Shot". This sounds difficult, but ONLY if you do it as you're going down OR after you are bending down.

Pre setting your body is the EASIEST way to play pool at a championship level. Pros would play like amateurs if they didn't pre set their bodies as I"m suggesting. Watch several matches on you tube videos with your favorite players and see for yourself.

Watch the position they are in BEFORE they get down and how they stay in that position with all their relative body angles. The ones that don't do this as well are the ones that have to practice the most to maintain their games. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
start understanding the simplicity that is in the Game of Pool

madmiller said:
I don't know about disliking them, I like them a lot! Like I said before, I started to use his "wrist thing" and no pre-stroke shooting advice and my game went up in less than a month( from a level 3 in apa to level 6) Prior to that I was always shooting on level 3, occasionally being bumped up to a 4 after one good night, but then always was coming back to 3.
Today I decided to try his "aiming with foot" method and - WOW - what a difference. I didn't miss at all the whole night, haven't missed a shot.I couldn't believe it. It felt awkward in the beginning, but after some time, I got used to it.
I played a couple of players of a lot higher caliber than me and they couldn't beat me. None of them believed me that I was a 6 and just started playing pool only a couple of years ago in my forties. All of them were playing for over 20 years.
I can only imagine what I can achieve if I continue to practice like that for a couple of months.
Thanks CJ, for your advice!!! I really appreciate that a player of your caliber is willing to share his secrets!
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You are welcome. I'm glad you are getting the enjoyment from The Game that makes it all worthwhile.

It only takes a few days or weeks to drastically improve when you start understanding the simplicity that is in the Game of Pool.

I have a student from Poland that sent me a letter outlining his training regement and he's using the touch of inside, the three part pocket system, the pre shot routine, the connection system, the anapana meditation, and the shot put drill.

He's also doing the "no practice stroke drill" and a couple others that I sent him in private. After two weeks his game as improved dramatically. With his permission I may post his last letter, it's inspirational because of a few other things as well. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Think in terms of being a MASTER of pool and how you would move

BasementDweller said:
I wanted to quote this message because I think some people are missing the point in the discussion about practice strokes, or at least a part of the point.

I mentioned the difference between the traditional practice stroke and the cue ball - cue tip measuring that some players do in a previous post. West Point described it better than I did here.

I don't know of any players that just get down and shoot. Sean mentioned Tony Drago. He does the measuring thing where he just sizes up where he's going to hit the cue ball. Ronnie O'Sullivan pretty much does this exact same thing, except he might throw in a single practice stroke, of the sawing variety.

For me personally, I do just as West Point 1987 described, I might do 1 practice stroke after I first approach the cue ball just to loosen up, but then I just focus on where I'm going to hit the cue ball. I've found this focus on the cue ball/cue tip contact is WAY more important than trying to gauge the speed of the actual stroke.

Ever since I've thrown the traditional practice strokes out I've noticed that I'm playing much more subconsciously. Of course, I've noticed that after the fact, not while I was shooting since that wouldn't be possible right???

I think this is one of those things that will definitely vary from player to player but it's worth messing with if you are like me and you think maybe you are spending too much time down over the ball.
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Yes, the "FULL" practice strokes are detrimental for a number of reasong. First they force you to use your arm too much which is what you're trying to avoid.

Second it effects how your eyes go back and forth from the cue ball to the object ball (this is a dangerous area to mess with). Third it DOES make you more conscious about what you are doing.

Think in terms of being a MASTER of pool and how you would move, how you would look at the table and how you would take your practice stokes. It reminds me of a Champion dart player I knew in Tampa Fl., he would hit where he was aiming EVERY TIME. He would just point the dart, measure up with some "applied pressure" and release the dart by extending his hand towards the target. Just like extending your tip through the ball, there's no need to think about "stoke", just your hand and releasing your wrist/fingers smoothly.
 
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DTL said:
and the left foot MUST be on the "Line of the Shot" or it's tough to be precise day in, day out. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Did you mean the left foot must be PARALLEL to the line of the shot? For a right handed player the RIGHT foot must be ON the line of the shot......that's what the snooker coaches stress. Thx.[/QUOTE]

That would be the correct description that makes sense! That s old stuff, and being teached for a very long time already-and this extremly successfully.
I use this also, use this also to teach it my students.
And i m sure CJ meant the same-and just mistyped somehow. I don t want to imagine how that would look like...to have the left foot on the shot-line/striking line ...and the rear foot also, lmao!
 
conventional methods and it takes the fun/touch out of the game for me.

gregcantrall said:
The little thing that got me started was when CJ was talking about "the slot". That brought to my mind the way my thumb and index finger, when parallel form a slot. The second thing that really got me going was when he spoke of holding the cue with the fingers. I realized that I had been working so hard on keeping my body still and only my shooting arm moving on the stroke that I had taken my fingers out of the equation and they were just holding the cue and simply along for the ride. So ..... I started practicing with the swing thought of putting my fingers in control of the stroke. Oh yea.....it works so much better for me. I have so much more control of whitey when I put my fingers in charge. Along with more power available for draw and stroke shots.

When I was in my 20's I played a lot of ping pong using a pen holder grip. That taught me how much power and control I can produce with just a quick flip of the wrist and fingers.
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Yes, I played a lot of Ping Pong when I was young as well. Using the wrist/fingers stroke is going to be refreshing for a lot of players. I've tried conventional methods and it takes the fun/touch out of the game for me.

Even if I played perfectly without feel/touch it wouldn't be as rewarding. Playing the "conventional way" feels like wearing mittons after you use the wrist/hand/fingers method for awhile.
 
Just took this shot of Peter Ebdon. :)
 

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They don't teach us to play that way in Missouri!

Underclocked said:
Just took this shot of Peter Ebdon. :)
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I'm sure you can play like that, but he's going to need some Icy Hot and a chiropractor before everything is "said and done".

They don't teach us to play that way in Missouri! :groucho:

Just kiddin.....One thing that I really think is good about the snooker players is how they face the cue ball very squarely. It's the ideal position to pot balls in, but the down side is it's not quite as powerful a position to move the cue ball around the table.

In the last Mosconi Cup I was in we played a lot against Steve Davis and Ronnie O'Sullivan and they rarely missed a ball, but did stuggle a bit on power draw and follow shots. And don't take me wrong, I've seen them make incredible ones playing snooker, but it's just tougher playing billiards.
 
West Point 1987 said:
Wow. That there is strong stuff.:eek:
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He sure doesn't waste any time with "practice strokes". Playing a guy like this would concern me because he doesn't lose any energy unnecessarily and makes the Game look easy....because it IS easy.

And let's face it when you're listening to Knockin On Heavens Door, how can you possible not play like a champion. :wink:
 
Its not the wrinst muscles

Dont apply any muscle power to your wrist...the hand and wrist just go along for the ride. Its the centrifugal force created by swinging your forearm that drives the cue. Anytime you attempt to speed up your stroke by using muscle power you really tighten up the wrist movement and actually slow down the stoke.
 
Its not the wrist muscles

Dont apply any muscle power to your wrist...the hand and wrist just go along for the ride. Its the centrifugal force created by swinging your forearm that drives the cue. Anytime you attempt to speed up your stroke by using muscle power you really tighten up the wrist movement and actually slow down the stoke.
 
CJ, congrats on being the Mosconi Cup Captain, kick some A$$ and take some names. :) USA USA
 
you're applying a "wrist movement"?

truman said:
Dont apply any muscle power to your wrist...the hand and wrist just go along for the ride. Its the centrifugal force created by swinging your forearm that drives the cue. Anytime you attempt to speed up your stroke by using muscle power you really tighten up the wrist movement and actually slow down the stoke.
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This brings a few questions to mind:

1) Centrifugal force* - are you sure it's Centrifugal* force? It's not a real force as defined and "a force for convenience". SEE BELOW*

2) If the wrist is "just along for the ride", what wrist movement will "actually slow down the stroke"? In other words why would it matter if you tighten up "the wrist movement" if there's no wrist movement anyway?

3) How do you go about not applying any "muscle power" to your wrist when you're applying a "wrist movement"?





*Centrifugal Force, in physics, the tendency of an object following a curved path to fly away from the center of curvature. Centrifugal force is not a true force; it is a form of inertia (the tendency of objects that are moving in a straight line to continue moving in a straight line). Centrifugal force is referred to as a force for convenience—because it balances centripetal force, which is a true force. If a ball is swung on the end of a string, the string exerts centripetal force on the ball and causes it to follow a curved path. The ball is said to exert centrifugal force on the string, tending to break the string and fly off on a tangent.
 
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