need advice for inventing billiards products

N

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, heres the situation.

I am a full time business partner, so the more hours I put in at work, the more money I make, and I like to make money.

On the other hand, I am not happy with my life if I can't spend time with the family and play competitive pool. So I do both.

My mind is also constantly racing about different ideas, jokes, stories, math questions, etc. and I have thought of a few product ideas only to find that they were already patented.

Now I have a product idea for pool. I am buying a 3-D printer so I can make the product for myself and my friends if they want one. I don't really want to invest time/money into a second business because it would be smarter to make the first business more successful. Although I don't really want to make a lot of money with this idea, I don't really want someone else make money I should be making, so I am in a bit of a pickle.

It would be a relatively simple product to make once the mold was prepared, and it would fit in one of the pockets of cue cases.

I've heard it costs $75,000 (is that correct?) to patent something, so I need help with the economics. I'm assuming it would cost the same (or up too twice the cost) to make as a plastic bridgehead, possibly with twice the plastic. If someone makes and sells bridgeheads, how much is the initial investment, cost to make, and selling price?

If someone makes and markets a cue rest that allows you to lean your cue against the table, do they have to pay q-claw or anyone else? Someone makes a bridgehead with tip shapers in the middle. Did they have to pay someone because they make a bridge head or a tip shaper in one? My product would be multifunctional, but it may incorporate elements of items already in use.

Is there anybody the buys ideas and takes them over? I would never know who to trust, how much to ask, etc. I think a lot of the invent-assist companies may be screwballs, but I don't know.

I do not want to get into selling or marketing these things and I would drop it if I didn't see value to myself and my friends near term, and maybe it will help the pool world long term. I think you could take this item out of your case and prove to someone why certain shots are fouls, and it would allow you to make shots that are otherwise a foul. If it can do that and it can perform the same tasks as a few $5-20 items, it seems like a good idea to me.

Any help is appreciated. This is not intended to be a commercial post, just need advice. If it is inappropriately posted, I am sorry.
 
my $0.02 worth of advice....don't even CONSIDER inventing anything wherein a patent would be necessary....unless you want to burn thru 10s of thousands of dollars on a "widget"....i went thru $250,000 to no avail....takes too much money for the return...time is money....be advised you are talking years to get the patent! :sorry:
 
3d printer

do you understand cad/cam ?
how are you with mach3.
are you thinking this is a press and play, buy the machine and ta duh you are in business.

can you write a file in g codes?
If you cannot you shouldnt buy a 3d printer yet.
what software is the 3 printer running.
what training is being offered with you 3d printer?

if you buy a 3 d printer there are other products that sale for more,
that are in hire demands then pool products .

why dont you design your product and have someone else with a 3d printer make it.
MMike

MMike
 
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oldplayer said:
my $0.02 worth of advice....don't even CONSIDER inventing anything wherein a patent would be necessary....unless you want to burn thru 10s of thousands of dollars on a "widget"....i went thru $250,000 to no avail....takes too much money for the return...time is money....be advised you are talking years to get the patent! :sorry:
Click to expand...

I was afraid that would be the answer. It is frustrating to me that it takes that kind of resources to do something. The system is broken.
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
do you understand cad/cam ?
how are you with mach3.
are you thinking this is a press and play, buy the machine and ta duh you are in business.

can you write a file in g codes?
If you cannot you shouldnt buy a 3d printer yet.
what software is the 3 printer running.
what training is being offered with you 3d printer?

if you buy a 3 d printer there are other products that sale for more,
that are in hire demands then pool products .

why dont you design your product and have someone else with a 3d printer make it.
MMike

MMike
Click to expand...

I am proficient in cad, but haven't programmed anything in a long time. I was thinking I'd have to get help in that regard, but I've never been afraid to try.
 
If you aren't wanting to focus all of your attention on this the its not worth the patent. It would take years and stupids amounts of money.

If its an idea or invention that is going to make millions then by all means get a patent. Majority of the time, especially in billiards new patented products barely make enough profit to cover the cost of the patent. I'd take a long realistic look and do the math to see if it justifies going down the patent route.

As far as incorporating other products into yours...I'm not sure if that would be an infringement. I'd get legal advice or I'm sure there are some fellow AZers involved in the legal business that would be happy to answer any questions about this for nothing.

Good luck, and if this does make you millions...I'd like a diamond table please!
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
do you understand cad/cam ?
how are you with mach3.
are you thinking this is a press and play, buy the machine and ta duh you are in business.

can you write a file in g codes?
If you cannot you shouldnt buy a 3d printer yet.
what software is the 3 printer running.
what training is being offered with you 3d printer?

if you buy a 3 d printer there are other products that sale for more,
that are in hire demands then pool products .

why dont you design your product and have someone else with a 3d printer make it.
MMike


MMike
Click to expand...

know anyone with a 3d printer?
 
All of your patent law questions would be best answered by a patent lawyer, not a bunch of pool people on an internet forum. No offense guys. ;)

For what it's worth, I, too, have a unique product that I wanted to patent, and looked into patenting my idea, but discovered it's just far too expensive for a single person and/or small company to move forward, in my opinion.

One possibility is to secure a Provisional Patent. It'll still probably cost you about $10,000+ in legal fees, etc. But, once secured, a Provisional Patent gives you one year to secure a full-blown Non-Provisional Patent. That way, you can shop your idea around to bigger companies for one year without the fear of them stealing your idea.

Again, don't take my information as completely accurate. Consult a patent attorney.
 
ndakotan said:
OK, heres the situation.

I am a full time business partner, so the more hours I put in at work, the more money I make, and I like to make money.

On the other hand, I am not happy with my life if I can't spend time with the family and play competitive pool. So I do both.

My mind is also constantly racing about different ideas, jokes, stories, math questions, etc. and I have thought of a few product ideas only to find that they were already patented.

Now I have a product idea for pool. I am buying a 3-D printer so I can make the product for myself and my friends if they want one. I don't really want to invest time/money into a second business because it would be smarter to make the first business more successful. Although I don't really want to make a lot of money with this idea, I don't really want someone else make money I should be making, so I am in a bit of a pickle.

It would be a relatively simple product to make once the mold was prepared, and it would fit in one of the pockets of cue cases.

I've heard it costs $75,000 (is that correct?) to patent something, so I need help with the economics. I'm assuming it would cost the same (or up too twice the cost) to make as a plastic bridgehead, possibly with twice the plastic. If someone makes and sells bridgeheads, how much is the initial investment, cost to make, and selling price?

If someone makes and markets a cue rest that allows you to lean your cue against the table, do they have to pay q-claw or anyone else? Someone makes a bridgehead with tip shapers in the middle. Did they have to pay someone because they make a bridge head or a tip shaper in one? My product would be multifunctional, but it may incorporate elements of items already in use.

Is there anybody the buys ideas and takes them over? I would never know who to trust, how much to ask, etc. I think a lot of the invent-assist companies may be screwballs, but I don't know.

I do not want to get into selling or marketing these things and I would drop it if I didn't see value to myself and my friends near term, and maybe it will help the pool world long term. I think you could take this item out of your case and prove to someone why certain shots are fouls, and it would allow you to make shots that are otherwise a foul. If it can do that and it can perform the same tasks as a few $5-20 items, it seems like a good idea to me.

Any help is appreciated. This is not intended to be a commercial post, just need advice. If it is inappropriately posted, I am sorry.
Click to expand...

Ndakotan

The decision to patent or not is a tough one. There are a few questions that will help though.

Is your idea patentable in the first place? You mentioned that it incorporated some things already in the public domain. Certainly those portions would not be protected by any patents you may get issued.

Is your idea something that would be obvious to anyone who sees the product? Patents aren't always the best way to protect your idea. Patents have a life span, after which the idea is public domain. If you can keep it a secret, then not getting a patent is best. Think of the formula for Coca Cola. It's not patented and has been the property of the Coca Cola company for over a hundred years. (I think it's been that long!)

Would the profit from the product bring you much more in profit than the cost of the patent? This really tells you the value of your idea. You'll need to do some research to see what the consumer acceptable price would be as well as the market volume. You'd also need to research a cost to make it too. By a large percentage, especially in the small industry of billiards, most ideas are not going to make enough money to warrant a patent.


But, don't let the whole patent thing discourage you. Even if it's not a good idea to get a patent, you can still make some good income and have some fun with it. Have a confidentiality agreement drawn up so you can show it to some industry people. Rory Meuller comes to mind as he has some manufacturing abilities already, and he certainly has a marketing system in place. Seyberts, Joe Nielsen, etc. would be candidates too.

To make your first prototype, I'd just have it made by machining and not worry about the 3D printer thing. They aren't production machines and there would certainly be a learning curve just to getting your first product made.

I hope I made it better for you, and not worse. But that's how I see it anyway.

Royce Bunnell
 
On manufacturing--I have worked as a major supplier for some of the largest companies on the East Coast for the last 30 years. Concerning the cost for molds to say, Plastic Injection Molding--your cost could be anywhere for the mold from say 8 grand up to 25 grand, depending how many cavaties are in the mold. Meaning each time the injection takes place--are you going to have one part or maybe 10. Now if the part is bigger that say a bridge head the price goes higher. The molds are lined with Platinum so that after an injection and the two halfs of the mold is seperated the parts just fall out. Hence the cost for such molds. Once the molds are paid for, they last just about forever though. I still rep molding companies if interested.
 
3D printer

Do I know anyone with a 3 d printer? yes
from what I understand ink is spendy.

MMike
 
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ndakotan said:
know anyone with a 3d printer?
Click to expand...

There are tons of companies popping up everywhere offering 3D printing services. Most of the time, you need only upload your file to their site, and it can be printed in a day or two, depending on the size and amount of material needed. Something like a bridgehead, for example, can cost about $75-150, depending on what type of 3D printer it is (some use laser-solidifying techniques, some use additive spaghetti-like techniques).

In the next 5 years or so, 3D printers will be pretty readily available to the public, as user-friendly software is more developed, companies decide to offer their products to be downloaded and printed, and as the cost of these printers goes down in general.

I am currently working on about 5 different billiard products myself, all of which will be 3D printed prototypes, from which I will try and sell to manufacturers in the market already that can afford the molds and such.

Hope this helps. Anything to get more billiards products on the market!
 
You can submit your own patent but you will have to do considerable research on what the requirements are for the legal verb-age and drawing requirements.

The biggest issue is making your patent defensible.. That's about the only value in using an attorney. They have already done the homework and know the ropes.

Inventors used to patent most of their ideas themselves but it only took a few clever companies armed with an army of attorneys stealing a few ideas and winning in court for inventors to start needing attorneys themselves.... Couple that with the opposite side of the coin and here we are....

The system is broken and has been for awhile.. http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/07/11/how-patent-trolling-taxes-innovation/

You may want to check out the resources on legal zoom to start... There is plenty of info on patents,copyrights, and trademarks.....
 
attorneys are attorneys are attorneys....i paid more than $60,000 in attorney's fees for the first one then paid another $20,000 to another because the first one did it wrong! they were both specialiazing in patents......need i say more?:rolleyes: also, the patent office has a policy to rubber stamp "denied" on the first offering..meaning the patent atty gets to spend more time in doing it again!...:mad:
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
do you understand cad/cam ?
how are you with mach3.
are you thinking this is a press and play, buy the machine and ta duh you are in business.

can you write a file in g codes?
If you cannot you shouldnt buy a 3d printer yet.
what software is the 3 printer running.
what training is being offered with you 3d printer?

if you buy a 3 d printer there are other products that sale for more,
that are in hire demands then pool products .

why dont you design your product and have someone else with a 3d printer make it.
MMike

MMike
Click to expand...

3D Printers don't use G-Codes, or Ink,,,,,,,
 
Couple notes:
1) Patents don't allow you to make a product.
2) If you use an attorney it will cost money - as most things associated with attorneys do. But the cost really depends on the technology, the saturation in that field, the number of claims you pursue and the type of attorney you choose.
3) You [generally] don't need prototypes to apply for a patent.

-td
 
Chip Roberson said:
On manufacturing--I have worked as a major supplier for some of the largest companies on the East Coast for the last 30 years. Concerning the cost for molds to say, Plastic Injection Molding--your cost could be anywhere for the mold from say 8 grand up to 25 grand, depending how many cavaties are in the mold. Meaning each time the injection takes place--are you going to have one part or maybe 10. Now if the part is bigger that say a bridge head the price goes higher. The molds are lined with Platinum so that after an injection and the two halfs of the mold is seperated the parts just fall out. Hence the cost for such molds. Once the molds are paid for, they last just about forever though. I still rep molding companies if interested.
Click to expand...

I'm a retired moldmaker and built plastic injection molds for many years.
I never saw one lined with platinum. Parts mainly fall out because of the way
the molds are cooled and/or by ejector pins after the hot plastic solidifies.

I agree with you on the cost, but have seen many for well over 25 grand,
not because of how many cavities, but because of slides, shapes and shutoffs.
Simple multiple cavity molds may cost less than an intricate mold with 2 cavities.
 
ndakotan;3875394I've heard it costs $75 said:
It costs around $15K (absolute minmum) to obtain a patent. $5K to file it for consideration, and $5k to secure the patent should the USPTO decide to grant it. There will be at leas $5K of various stuff between filing and secruing the patent. The shortest time one of my patents has taken to get through USPTO was 22 months; the longest over 7 years.

And this is if there are no laywers involved. For no laywer to be involved, you will have to write the patent in patenteese, do all the drawings, do all the patentability research, make the claims,... If you have not done this for at least 10 patent, hire the lawyer! I have one patent that I wrote every single word, did all the drawings,... and I still paid a law firm to deal with all the USPTO stuff. I have 42 patents overall.

But $75K is on the high side, figure mid-to-low $30Ks for an average patent with minimal overlap with already patented stuff. Every time you have to adjust the claims, more money is involved, so you basically HAVE to do the patent research up front, or hire a law firm that has a database of this kind of stuff.

Patents started out as a way for the small guy to compete with the big boys and has morphed into a system where the big guys simply crush the peons in order to stiffle competition.
Click to expand...
 
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