WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

"If you can't beat the competition at "the game," you must change "The Game."

Pay Up Sucker said:
I also just don't see it as a great cue ball moving technique but i do see it as a controlling cue ball technique. what do you think? I told you in the past, i see you trying to make your game simplistic and repeatable and you said no lol :)
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The T.O.I. system is the complete package. Of course there's many other things you have to learn about pool, and that will never change. You can say I make the game "simplistic and repeatable," and you would certainly have a good point, and I agree with your observation.

Let's just add this point: It's not the same "game" you are referring to. I know this sounds strange, however, when you start playing the game using just one "shot" it changes everything and becomes something unique and "unusual". There are many stories of me beating people using this technique (champion level players) and they just couldn't figure out how I was doing it. And{of course}I would never tell them, that wouldn't be prudent.

This knowledge is being shared now because it will add somthing to people's enjoyment of "The Game" and may make a difference (and I don't gamble for a living anymore;)). I don't like the direction pool's went in the last few years and anything I can do to help it "get back on it's feet" I WILL DO.

I owe this Game my{way of}life, it's the least I can do for it. And, of course I'm talking about the Game in a larger sense than just "a rectangular table with 16 balls," I'm talking about a "way of life that it created for me." And I have a feeling many of you reading this can relate.

"If you can't beat the competition at "the game," you must change "The Game." :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher
 
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What I told him was true, this technique made me "deadly" off the end rail

peteypooldude said:
I have been using the "touch of inside" in practice. Today I actually got out a couple times shooting every ball that way. I'm going to have to keep using it on every ball until I get used to the patterns it causes me to use.
A side note.. Have you ever noticed Archer cuing to the inside? Even on his break
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Shoot EVERY shot that way for awhile. The only exception is on staight in shots, curve shots, changing the angle after hitting a rail and throwing banks. Look for the way to do it every time and if you don't see it - PRACTICE IT UNTIL YOU DO. There's Always a way.

Yeah, Johnny told me he started using it on shots off the rail in the last couple of years. I told him "that's the biggest advantage I had on you, but I guess not anymore." :groucho: What I told him was true, this technique made me "deadly" off the end rail, and it was especially critical playing "roll out rules."

I"ve shown this technique to several people through the years and they ALL became great money players. They wouldn't want me to identify them, so I won't, but one of them{jokingly}PMed me and said "why are you giving this away?" and I told him "because it will create more action, it will just be "super tough".:yikes::rotflmao: I know it's disheartening to see when other players know how to play this type game. They will certainly make you "earn it." :wink:
 
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I remember that, but i want to see the cue ball after contact that is very noticeable. The only way he can do that on every shot routinely is to move his entire alignment a touch inside and make that off center line his regular center ball alignment instead of using the actual center ball alignment that we all know and are used to. This is what he has to be doing. This is the only way i can see him using inside/outside english with this technique...five edits later and im done lol :)
 
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My alignment is always a "Touch" to the Inside.

Pay Up Sucker said:
I remember that, but i want to see the cue ball after contact that is very noticeable. The only way he can do that on every shot routinely is to move his entire alignment a touch inside and make that off center line his regular center ball alignment instead of using the actual center ball alignment that we all know and are used to. This is what he has to be doing. This is the only way i can see him using inside/outside english with this technique...five edits later and im done lol :)
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I only align on the center of the cue ball for staight in shots, or sometimes when I have to "slow roll" a ball (which I try not to do).

My alignment is always a "Touch" to the Inside. I don't try to spin the cue ball, I just go straight through which makes the object ball "over cut" slightly. This enables me to aim at the "undercut side" of the pocket and force in the center. You can read more about this discussion at http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=283974&page=33
 
Pay Up Sucker said:
CJ can you give me a few time lines on this video that shows you using the inside touch that is noticeable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDEFlnguDY
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From what I saw of the video in his first attempt at the table (3 racks), CJ used a touch of inside on the entire first rack except for stop shots. And he may have held one of those with inside.

The second rack was also a touch of inside except for possibly the 2 ball. I don't know what he did with the 1 ball bank and straight in shot. The third rack he used it again until he missed the bank.

I see similar results for position while watching the cue ball kill and float off of the rails. Though I'm not as good as he is with cue ball control, I understand how he is coming into his position areas with a touch of inside. I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't been playing with it for the last few weeks.

I used to see many top players controlling the cue ball like this and never knew what they were doing. I was always an outside spin shooter and threw the balls in the pockets. I found that you have to play with it for an extended period of time for it to click and become natural. This commitment will start showing rewards in your game after a few days of serious practice.

Best,
Mike
 
For me, it took 3 hours to prove the concept...then about 3 weeks to get to the point that I don't even think about it. The touch of inside is very subtle...now if i notice I'm lining up with inside, it's probably too much inside and I reset. You don't have to kill the ball, just make sure you're accelerating through the cueball...that could be from zero to two mph--doesn't have to be from zero to 21 mph. You can finesse these shots just as easily as slow spin shots.

I also don't notice the three part pocket anymore. I know instinctively I'm lined up to slip it into the outside part of the pocket, and it drills right into the center. The first 3 weeks of fine-tuning made all that automatic...as far as i'm concerned, it feels the same way it did in the past when I was lining up to hit the center of the pocket (it "looks" the same to me, it's just a different calibration that I don't perceive anymore). The biggest difference is consistancy and confidence. I just know the ball's going to drill the back of the pocket with a nice "thwock" sound and the cueball is going to do exactly what I now predict, using the natural angle. It almost always just dribbles into place for the next shot. It's eerie. This technique makes me feel totally in control and rarely surprises me...and that's HUGE.

Occassionally, I'll notice too much inside spin and will make a conscious effort to readjust. I'm also liking the cocked wrist action, too...I wasn't sold on it at first, but it's starting to work better for me. I still use a mix between my old grip and the new one; probably always will. :wink:
 
Mikjary said:
From what I saw of the video in his first attempt at the table (3 racks), CJ used a touch of inside on the entire first rack except for stop shots. And he may have held one of those with inside.

The second rack was also a touch of inside except for possibly the 2 ball. I don't know what he did with the 1 ball bank and straight in shot. The third rack he used it again until he missed the bank.

I see similar results for position while watching the cue ball kill and float off of the rails. Though I'm not as good as he is with cue ball control, I understand how he is coming into his position areas with a touch of inside. I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't been playing with it for the last few weeks.

I used to see many top players controlling the cue ball like this and never knew what they were doing. I was always an outside spin shooter and threw the balls in the pockets. I found that you have to play with it for an extended period of time for it to click and become natural. This commitment will start showing rewards in your game after a few days of serious practice.

Best,
Mike
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The reason i asked that is because i want to see the cue ball reaction after hitting the object ball. I totally understand the technique and how to do it and can do it. I will work this out with you and have a closer look at the video. :)
 
Hey Mike, I am thinking he controls the speed of the cue ball with the zone of the pocket he wants to hit. This must be how you can move the cue ball around with the consistent stroke speed needed for this technique. A center pocket pot is for a very controlled cue ball that floats off 1,2,3 feet and the outside pocket pot is for when he wants to move the cue ball around the table 4+ feet...make sense or am I really over thinking this and I should get a life? lol :D

I am going to set up a table from the miz video when cj runs out and try to match his shape and see what happens and then run it my way.
 
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"if the cue ball doesn't go where I want it to go, it goes somewhere better.

West Point 1987 said:
For me, it took 3 hours to prove the concept...then about 3 weeks to get to the point that I don't even think about it. The touch of inside is very subtle...now if i notice I'm lining up with inside, it's probably too much inside and I reset. You don't have to kill the ball, just make sure you're accelerating through the cueball...that could be from zero to two mph--doesn't have to be from zero to 21 mph. You can finesse these shots just as easily as slow spin shots.

I also don't notice the three part pocket anymore. I know instinctively I'm lined up to slip it into the outside part of the pocket, and it drills right into the center. The first 3 weeks of fine-tuning made all that automatic...as far as i'm concerned, it feels the same way it did in the past when I was lining up to hit the center of the pocket (it "looks" the same to me, it's just a different calibration that I don't perceive anymore). The biggest difference is consistancy and confidence. I just know the ball's going to drill the back of the pocket with a nice "thwock" sound and the cueball is going to do exactly what I now predict, using the natural angle. It almost always just dribbles into place for the next shot. It's eerie. This technique makes me feel totally in control and rarely surprises me...and that's HUGE.

Occassionally, I'll notice too much inside spin and will make a conscious effort to readjust. I'm also liking the cocked wrist action, too...I wasn't sold on it at first, but it's starting to work better for me. I still use a mix between my old grip and the new one; probably always will. :wink:
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This is how someone describes using the technique that is doing it correctly. It changes the whole perception of the Game and they will know it FOR SURE and want to use it on EVERY shot (unless straight in).

You are correct in readjusting if you notice it spinning. My key is to line up with the Touch of Inside and go straight through the cue ball. After contacting the object ball the cue ball will "float," with no "side spin" to the next location.

The contol you will start achieving will be "eery" indeed, I used to say "if the cue ball doesn't go where I want it to go, it goes somewhere better." 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
it means they are a very accomplished player

Pay Up Sucker said:
The reason i asked that is because i want to see the cue ball reaction after hitting the object ball. I totally understand the technique and how to do it and can do it. I will work this out with you and have a closer look at the video. :)
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What you're stiving to do is get the cue ball to have "No Spin" after contact and appear to "float" to the next postition (at least for the first few feet).

I would suggest watching Efren{or any of the Filipinos} play and pay close attention to when he draws the ball on a "half ball" cut and watch the cue ball. He will appear to hit the shot firmly, but the cue ball will "die" and float to the next location.

If you don't know what to look for you will still notice something "different" about his cue ball reaction{after contact}and you won't be able to "put your finger" on what's actually happening. "We will only recognize what we're familiar with".

When you start seeing this for what it really is, you will always be aware of someone doing it. This is useful information, because no one does this consistently "by accident," if someone is "floating" the cue ball it means they are a very accomplished player. 'The Game is the Teacher'

You will be able to see it watching this Link with "The MiZ" and me as well.
Steve Mizerak-vs-CJ Wiley
 
notice right away that the more you move inside, the more it will "overcut" the ball

DTL said:
CJ

I've been practicing some rotation pool using TOI on every shot possible. I was surprised on how many shots you can use it on in just one rack of 10 ball. And I've been trying to use the same speed on every shot as well...........I've been doing this by raising/lowering the tip to get maximum distance or slow it down (killing it).

Was wondering, when you use TOI do you line your tip up center CB to center ghost ball and angle your cue just left or right (inside) from the pivot point of your bridge hand or do you slide over parallel to that point (TOI)?

Thx.

DTL
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I don't use any pivots to pocket balls. The only thing I use a pivot on is one of my banking systems, and it's not related to the TOI system.

You are an accomplished player and can hit the cue ball accurately, so I would suggest when practicing to hit all shots (except straight in's), getting down slightly to the Inside. Make sure you keep your cue straight (I use a center/edge system, not ghost ball), and you will start to develop a "killer" stun/kill shot.

If you undercut the Object Ball, then shoot the same shot with slightly more inside OR hit it a shade harder (with the same TOI). DO NOT re calibrate your aim, just keep it the same and alter the shot with either speed or moving (without pivot) slightly more inside.

You will notice right away that the more you move inside, the more it will "overcut" the ball. I calibrate this speed/TOI until I'm hitting the center of the pocket everytime.

This is the outcome you're looking for, and it's done with the "Touch", not necessarily the "vision". If you experience what I'm suggesting that last sentence will make sense. If you don't it won't. ;)
 
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If you start "throwing" the "Straight In's" - LOWER the bet

Or, do you suggest setting the pivot point and stick parallel to the shot line while aimed at the TOI contact point and stroke straight down that line. I think this is what you're talking about because you want the CB to deflect a bit to make what was a shot aimed at the undercut side of the pocket become a center pocket hit, right?

I understand everything else, I think. LOL.

Attached are some photos to maybe help explain what I'm talking about.

Thx.

DTL


Yes, I"m going staight down the line, and accelerating (a Touch Inside) in a way that it cuts slightly more. Then if you calibrate it to the center of the pocket (if that's where you're targeting) and this maximizes margin of error. You are{unconsciously}aiming for the "under cut" side and when you hit the Inside of the cue ball it will "over cut" into the center.

This gives you a bigger "zone of the pocket," and some would refer to it as a "feel for the pocket," I'm maximizing it in mind. And with that type "hit"{pinning it:cool:) you can do a lot with the cue ball. It's ok to favor the other side and use the "Touch" of Inside on the other side, but MAKE SURE to spin it.

I just like the other way better and aim at the "undercut" side virtually every time. Obvously, aim center to center when shooting a "straight in" shot. If you start "throwing" the "Straight In's" immediately LOWER the bet.:help: LoL
 
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The number 3 picture is closest to being correct but you have gone a bit to far inside of the vertical axis of the cue ball. Now my opinion on how this is done goes like this, take your #3 picture that's parallel, Now just move your tip towards the vertical axis of the cue ball a bit but not moving the butt of the cue. That would be the alignment for this touch of inside technique.


edit: cj posted at the same time or a few seconds before :)
 
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calibrate it so when it "looks" like it's straight in {however,} TOI makes it go

Pay Up Sucker said:
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The number 3 picture is closest to being correct but you have gone a bit to far inside of the vertical axis of the cue ball. Now my opinion on how this is done goes like this, take your #3 picture that's parallel, Now just move your tip towards the vertical axis of the cue ball a bit but not moving the butt of the cue. That would be the alignment for this touch of inside technique.


edit: cj posted at the same time or a few seconds before :)
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I agree, just move your tip to the right half way to the center (where it's not quite parallel)...sometime soon start experimenting with a "Touch to the Inside," and come down where it looks like your shooting the object ball straight ahead (into the rail). Now, with the Inside Alignment accelerate through the cue ball and make it cut the ball in. This will feel stange when you first start doing it because it looks like you're not going to cut it enough. You have to "make it happen," and you'll see what I mean, the ball will cut. :thumbup:

Cuing more inside will make the O.B. cut more. Again, calibrate it so when it "looks" like it's straight in {however,} you can make it with the T.O.I. There can be a day where it "looks" like shooting everything straight in, but they cut perfectly. This concept is advanced because you feel like you're in "the Zone" when doing it.

To do this you're basically changing your perception so that when you see the ball straight in you will unconsciously cut the ball with the TOI. This will take time to "program," I'm just saying it can be done if you go about it to achieve that outcome.

Someone said earlier you can hit the OB much fuller and I actually have the sensation that I"m shooting everything straight in and letting the TOI actually make the cut. Once I get to a "half ball" hit I use the TOI off the edge of the OB, instead of the center. FYI
 
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im sorry that i havent read every post on all your threads:embarrassed2:
but here is what i understand and my comments
im sure you will correct any improper assumptions on my part:wink:
here is what i understand you are doing
you are aiming to undercut the ball
then you you hit the the cue ball alittle to the inside of the vertical axis
your goal is to get alittle deflection (squirt) so the cue ball hits the correct contact point to pocket the ball
i hope that is correct
ill folow up in the next post
 
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