I'm not looking to argue. I'm just expressing my opinion regarding the rules as written.
Of course, Sir.
I am always happy to advise on Rules as this is clearly my area of expertise as an EPBF Rules Instructor.
Mr. pooler,
Just for discussion purposes, do those two rules when considered together make total sense?
The way World Standarized Rules are formatted is to cover thoroughly all possibilities connected to particular topic / merit / action without going too much into describing too much of details.
If you consider the recent case of the Bonus Ball Rules :wink: - lenghty and not too concise 
- which does more damage than good :boring2:
The generalisation of World Rules may seem inappropriate at first but it actually covers all possibilities comprehensively.
The rest is proper interpretation, with grounds for it in black and white. That is why Pool needs skilled Referees and well experienced Rules Instructors to train Referees well.
It is worth checking firts some other Definition, just to have a clear view on how is the ball’s position determined:
8.13 Position of Balls
The position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface. A ball is said to be placed on a line or spot when its center is placed directly over that line or spot.
Now to the thread's disscussed case:
Let me cite the Rules again, for technical purposes I divide this Definition in parts, as follows (
in red):
8.3 Ball Pocketed
(1.) A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system.
(2.) A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken.
(3.) An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball.
(4.) If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not.
The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.
From post #15
Those two(2) rules when considered together do not make total sense to me when fairness & skill are also considered.
With all respect, it is quite the contrary:
This Definition and its solutions cover all options:
Fairness - to all players,
to everyone, everywhere, on any equipment...
Skill – should include comprehensive knowledge as to what could happen, how to foresee it and how to prevent it...
Analysis:
Part (1.) of Definition 8.3: Deals with obvious situation when the ball “is pocketed” (thus, colloquially speaking – disappears into the pocket).
In one the shooter 'pockets' a ball all the way to the back &/or bottom of the pocket but is hit hard enough & just 'right' so that the pocket design rejects the ball & it is considered not pocketed...
...On the other hand (...) but his failure to do so results in two balls jammed between the jaws
If there are special cases (as above or pocket nearly full, or full) we look for solutions further in:
Part (2.) of Definition 8.3: Notice that this also deals with the possible case in which the ball actually piles up on top of other balls already under condition of “pocketed” thus, coming to rest higher than the playing surface.
Further, as it is someone’s responsibility to actually clear pockets of balls and to cover the topic of balls jumping out of the pocket we have additional sentence:
Part (3.) of Definition to clear up other cases that would come.
Fair and square, to everyone, everywhere.
Also, please notice that:
Part (4.) of Definition
deals exclusively with such instance regarding the cue ball - which has totally different determinants.
If I may add, off the record:
...his failure to do so results in two balls jammed between the jaws...
As to jammed balls:
Balls sometimes wobble when they enter the pocket (single ball or two balls).
Sometimes a skilled player uses the very narrow gap to squeeze another ball in.
Sometimes they both go in but sometimes just one, whilst the other one wobbles and goes out onto the playing surface.
Jammed balls is nothing else but the very action “frozen in the moment”.
Because the action stopped (part of the deal) you must deal with it somehow. Whether current solution is individually approved is argumentative.
But this is the solution most fitting the overall pattern of what would happen if they did not freeze. And it fits the previously described conduct.
That is why it was acknowledged as official, and applied to everyone, everywhere.
Pardon for the lengthy post, I consider it a part of my responsibilities not to leave any doubts in regards to correct application of the Rules .
Also, thanks for kind words everyone. :smile:
Regards,
and easier for all of us.
