If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

If I'm playing poker and have a bad hand, I can fold or I can bluff.
If I bluff and convince my opponent that I have strong cards when in fact I do not....am I cheating? There is clearly an element of deception but he has the opportunity to call the bluff!

I am unaware of any rule in poker that says you cannot do this and therefore do not consider it cheating. In fact, this behavior is commonplace.

If i call the foul on myself in pool, I'm essentially folding.

If I don't call the foul on myself but allow my opponent the opportunity to call the foul I'm essentially bluffing.

I am unaware of any rule in pool that says you cannot do this.

So, why do so many accept this behavior for poker but consider it cheating in pool?

You keep trying to come up with analogies from other sports or activities, when they dont apply.

Is "bluffing" in poker a foul? No. So you are not cheating. Bluffing is a part of the game, understood from the get go. To follow that line of thinking, we would have to play pool with the mindset that anything is ok, so long as our opponent doesn't "catch us" doing it.

The only other activity that comes close for this discussion is golf, and it is applied similarly.
In golf, you are expected to call your own fouls, too.

Honorable people call their fouls, and try to win on their own merits.
 
My last thoughts on this:

If we can't say that we would not cheat at a mere game that involves putting spheres into holes (for any amount of money wagered!), then we as a human race have bigger fish to fry...

Lol.... 18 children just got blown away at an elementary school.... I think you may be on to something with this human race issues....
 
You keep trying to come up with analogies from other sports or activities, when they dont apply.

Is "bluffing" in poker a foul? No. So you are not cheating. Bluffing is a part of the game, understood from the get go. To follow that line of thinking, we would have to play pool with the mindset that anything is ok, so long as our opponent doesn't "catch us" doing it.

The only other activity that comes close for this discussion is golf, and it is applied similarly.
In golf, you are expected to call your own fouls, too.

Honorable people call their fouls, and try to win on their own merits.

I'm glad I read your comment before posting.I agree with you 100%.
 
Krupa, you said: "Fouling in pool is not analogous to bluffing in poker. In the former, you're essentially violating the rules/regulations."

I think they are highly relavant.

In previous threads we've identified that people often break rules in many sports but they are only penalized when called on it by the refs or their opponent.

Watch a little instant replay on any major sport.

Are we now to say that all major sports are riddled with cheaters because they didn't call a penalty on themselves or their opponent or the ref didn't make the call? What about all those times the ref made a bad call?

Why isn't ESPN in an uproar over all the "cheating" in football?

It would seem that "rules" have little to do the issue, it's really about whether your opponent or the ref calls the penalty.

For those of you hung up on the rules...ask yourself, if you break the speed limit by 1 mph are you now a criminal?
Should you turn yourself in to the police and pay a fine?

Since I'm sure everyone on this forum who drives has broken this rule repeatedly, I have to ask those who seem hung up on "Integrity"; why aren't you in jail?

Surely, your honor would mandate that you turn yourself in to the police.....right?
 
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Lol.... 18 children just got blown away at an elementary school.... I think you may be on to something with this human race issues....

It was 20 children, and let's not disregard the 6 adults as they too cannot be forgotten!!!

Maniac (yes, pool IS very trivial compared to other real-life happenings)
 
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Krupa, you said: "Fouling in pool is not analogous to bluffing in poker. In the former, you're essentially violating the rules/regulations."

I think they are highly relavant.
Your analogy only works if you accept one of two things:
1. that bluffing in poker is a violation of the rules and only when your opponent calls your bluff.
2. that committing a foul in pool is only a violation if you get caught.

I do not believe that bluffing in poker is against the rules, and I do believe that fouling in pool is a violation whether I'm the only one who knows about it or not.

I don't really want to get off-topic with your other points (for the record, I don't give a shit about professional sports, so what they do or don't do is irrelevant to me.)

The thread is about calling fouls on yourself when you play pool. I do it, but I watch my opponent because I don't expect him to do it.
 
Krupa said:
"Your analogy only works if you accept one of two things:
1. that bluffing in poker is a violation of the rules and only when your opponent calls your bluff.
2. that committing a foul in pool is only a violation if you get caught. "

I disagree. Committing a foul is always a violation whether you get caught or not; however, you are only penalized if you get caught.

This is the big distinction.

Same in poker. You're only penalized by the bluff if your opponent calls your bluff.
 
Krupa said:
"Your analogy only works if you accept one of two things:
1. that bluffing in poker is a violation of the rules and only when your opponent calls your bluff.
2. that committing a foul in pool is only a violation if you get caught. "

I disagree. Committing a foul is always a violation whether you get caught or not; however, you are only penalized if you get caught.

This is the big distinction.

Same in poker. You're only penalized by the bluff if your opponent calls your bluff.

Let's go simpler...

Is bluffing in poker against the rules?
I say no.

Is committing a foul in pool against the rules?
I say yes. By my definition a "foul" is a violation of the rules.

How do you answer those two questions?
 
Let me rephrase:

If your opponent is not watching table, is that the equivalent of him ABANDONING the game?

If your opponent has disappeared and is no longer watching the game, surely this would be HIS problem, not yours.

And is it not the same if his MIND has abandoned the game? Surely his body is close to the table, but if he is not watching with his eyes and his mind, has he done anything but made an abandonment?
 
Perhaps I'm not being clear.....
I've already admitted that a foul is against the rules. This is not under debate.

What's under debate is whether the "rules" mandate that we call a foul on ourselves.

From what I can tell.....they do not!

Therefore, if we are not required under the rules to self penalize, we are then left to our own accord to determine what is appropriate.

Some will impose their perception of "honor" and act as if the "rule" is the end all to competition and call the foul on themselves.

Others will impose a seperate perception that requires their opponent to act upon the "rules".

In my opinion, neither player is a cheat and neither player is operating on a higher level of "honor".

It simply boils down to the way you interpret the game.
 
Chris stated: "Let me rephrase:

If your opponent is not watching table, is that the equivalent of him ABANDONING the game?

If your opponent has disappeared and is no longer watching the game, surely this would be HIS problem, not yours.

And is it not the same if his MIND has abandoned the game? Surely his body is close to the table, but if he is not watching with his eyes and his mind, has he done anything but made an abandonment? "


I believe that if my opponent is not at the table or paying attention, then he has essentially abandoned the game or at the very least has failed to exercise due dilligence in protecting his interest in the game and therefore, if he misses a foul, it is not upon me to advise him of the situation.
 
Let me rephrase:

If your opponent is not watching table, is that the equivalent of him ABANDONING the game?

If your opponent has disappeared and is no longer watching the game, surely this would be HIS problem, not yours.

And is it not the same if his MIND has abandoned the game? Surely his body is close to the table, but if he is not watching with his eyes and his mind, has he done anything but made an abandonment?

In response to this....

If my opponent must leave the table for what ever reason, and gives me the option to keep shooting and I do, then you MUST call your foul.

If a player is sitting right there not caring to watch the game this is a debateable topic.
 
Just because my opponent isn't watching doesn't give me full reins
to cheat.This is getting absurd that were trying to find a loophole
in the system to condone being unethical.

If you cheat in front of your opponent your an a--hole.
If you cheat behind his back,your a sneaky little pri-k and an a--hole.
 
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Perhaps I'm not being clear.....
I've already admitted that a foul is against the rules. This is not under debate.

What's under debate is whether the "rules" mandate that we call a foul on ourselves.

From what I can tell.....they do not!

Therefore, if we are not required under the rules to self penalize, we are then left to our own accord to determine what is appropriate.

Some will impose their perception of "honor" and act as if the "rule" is the end all to competition and call the foul on themselves.

Others will impose a seperate perception that requires their opponent to act upon the "rules".

In my opinion, neither player is a cheat and neither player is operating on a higher level of "honor".

It simply boils down to the way you interpret the game.

I agree with all of this. (But I still don't agree with the poker analogy. :D)
 
Krupa said: "I agree with all of this. (But I still don't agree with the poker analogy)"

If you agree with this, then we are on the same page...


As for those who keep infusing words like "cheat", "honor" and "Integrity" into this issue when they are simply self imposed perceptions....I fear they will always have a narrow viewpoint.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong...good or bad. It's simply their perspective.

I prefer to take a broader viewpoint. It may not be popular but it is much more inclusive and since I compete with a variety of different people with different life experiences and perspectives; I find my perspective provides for a more enjoyable pool experience since I'm not obligated to judge my opponent by standards he may not fit into.
 
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So if your opponent walks out the door without saying a word, would you say that he forfeits the game and match?

No... People go outside to smoke and such all the time. Or maybe he just wants some fresh air. I have stepped out side many a times while gambling and I just watch thru the window.

If a play breaks down his PLAYING cue, then I would take that as a forfeit.
 
No... People go outside to smoke and such all the time. Or maybe he just wants some fresh air. I have stepped out side many a times while gambling and I just watch thru the window.

If a play breaks down his PLAYING cue, then I would take that as a forfeit.

Would it be considered unsportsmanlike to remove yourself from the proximity of the table while your opponent is shooting? To go out and smoke while your opponent is shooting so that you cannot see the table? Is this behavior unsportsmanlike?
 
In previous threads we've identified that people often break rules in many sports but they are only penalized when called on it by the refs or their opponent. Watch a little instant replay on any major sport. Are we now to say that all major sports are riddled with cheaters because they didn't call a penalty on themselves or their opponent or the ref didn't make the call? What about all those times the ref made a bad call?

Well, yes. We can say the NFL is riddled with cheaters. The same way the highway is littered with speeders.

You see guys constantly breaking the rules intentionally in football, trying to get away with whatever they can. Holding, pass interference, etc. It's frequent... it affects plays and probably entire games.

So why don't the players call these fouls on themselves?

1. They want to keep their high paying job. Not an issue for pool players.
2. They answer to a team, and the decision might be very unpopular with the team. A "whistleblower" may lose his spot on the team. Not an issue for pool players.
3. Football specifically is a pretty macho sport. You're expected to break the other guy's bones, now you're gonna feel bad about pulling his jersey? Not an issue for pool players.
4. They don't have to feel bad about 'robbing' anyone, because they all get paid (well) regardless of whether they stick to the rules or not. So cheating the other team out of a victory doesn't mean you're cheating them out of money. Not an issue for pool players... if you cheat you directly affect a tournament or money match and you're potentially taking money out of the other guy's pocket.

Worth mentioning...
A lot of it has to do with herd behavior. We tend to go with the flow.
Football has just evolved into a game where nobody calls fouls on himself, sort of like how hockey has evolved into a sport that sanctions fighting. It's just tradition by now. There's no precedent for someone calling a foul on himself, and nobody wants rock the boat and end his career being the first to do it.

But pool does NOT have that tradition. Calling fouls on yourself is routine and is not going to end your pool career. If anything it's expected. And respected.

Why isn't ESPN in an uproar over all the "cheating" in football?

Because it's common, routine. Everyone already knows about it. Not newsworthy.
A better question might be, why isn't the NFL in an uproar about cheating?

The answer is, because it's primarily a show that people pay to see. They don't care whether the game is fun or fair, it's a huge moneymaker. If they put 22 refs on the field tomorrow, reviewed every single play, and benched consistent rule breakers... they'd have a cleaner and fairer league. But it'd slow everything down and be less popular with viewers. They'd lose money. So they don't bother.

It would seem that "rules" have little to do the issue, it's really about whether your opponent or the ref calls the penalty.

OK, so if you see your cue ball is about to come up short and get hooked behind another ball, and the opponent is directly behind you, or the ref is watching a hit on another table... why not just give the cue ball a little nudge so you're no longer hooked? Nobody saw it, and it's their job to catch this shit, so by your reasoning there's no reason you should feel ashamed to do this.

For those of you hung up on the rules...ask yourself, if you break the speed limit by 1 mph are you now a criminal?
Should you turn yourself in to the police and pay a fine?

A lot of it has to do with what everyone else does. We tend to go with the herd. For most people... if everyone else breaks the speed limit, then they will learn that behavior too. If nobody breaks it, then they will play along.

One reason the speeding analogy doesn't work is because there's an unspoken agreement between drivers and the police that the speed limit is 'flexible'. A ref will ALWAYS call a no-rail if he sees it. A policeman will NEVER cite you for 1 mph over. So there is a widely known "unwritten speed limit" that's about 10mph higher than the posted limit.
In pool there's no 2nd set of unwritten rules that a ref goes by. He goes by the book.

The other reason the analogy doesn't work is... with speeding, the law is broken by degrees, it's not "you're either speeding or you're not. Period." ... there are different degrees of speeding with different punishments. And cops can choose to not cite you, or to reduce the charge.

In pool it's a little more black-and-white. You either reached a rail or not. It was either a good hit or it wasn't. The ref has no leeway or selective enforcement.
 
People, how many times is this topic going to be brought up and argued by the same people over and over and over and over again?

Last time people got banned so at least I have something to look forward to...


Carry on...
 
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