rule question

[hon400ex]

I was watching a tournament the other day and a situation came up that I have never heard of. Sorry, I can't figure out the cue table thing. The five ball was frozen to the end rail and a guy hit the five and then the cue ball very clearly hit the end rail and bounced out. The five just trickled out. The guys opponent claimed that the whole end rail was dead and this was a bad hit. The TD said it was a good hit because they weren't playing by those rules. Have you guys heard of this rule before and if so, what tournaments play this way? BTW, this was an 8 ball tournament going by APA rules so she was wrong but I was just wondering in case it comes up somewhere else.
Thanks
Andy

 

[Pushout]

I was watching a tournament the other day and a situation came up that I have never heard of. Sorry, I can't figure out the cue table thing. The five ball was frozen to the end rail and a guy hit the five and then the cue ball very clearly hit the end rail and bounced out. The five just trickled out. The guys opponent claimed that the whole end rail was dead and this was a bad hit. The TD said it was a good hit because they weren't playing by those rules. Have you guys heard of this rule before and if so, what tournaments play this way? BTW, this was an 8 ball tournament going by APA rules so she was wrong but I was just wondering in case it comes up somewhere else.
Thanks
Andy

As long as the cue ball hit any rail after contacting the five I don't see a problem. There is, I believe, a rule about how many times you can play safe off the same rail but according to your description this does not apply. How can any rail be "dead", I don't get that one but I've never played in apa and never will. Why was the TD wrong??

 

[hon400ex]

As long as the cue ball hit any rail after contacting the five I don't see a problem. There is, I believe, a rule about how many times you can play safe off the same rail but according to your description this does not apply. How can any rail be "dead", I don't get that one but I've never played in apa and never will. Why was the TD wrong??

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The TD was right. This isn't an APA rule. I know most of them lol. The girl was the opponent who said it was a bad hit. She was wrong but I was wondering if there were other places who do use this rule.
Andy

 

[John Novak]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The TD was right. This isn't an APA rule. I know most of them lol. The girl was the opponent who said it was a bad hit. She was wrong but I was wondering if there were other places who do use this rule.
Andy

What she might have meant was, since the 5 was declared frozen, one of two things must happen, either the 5 must go to a different rail, or, the cue ball must hit a rail, any rail after contact. So when she said the rail that the 5 was on was "Dead", it was dead for the 5 ball, not the cue ball.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

I had a guy try and explain that to me too. If the OB was frozen to the short rail for example, I couldn't hit the OB and then the same rail with the cue ball. That rail was considered a dead rail as you say. The cue ball was supposed to hit the OB and then a different rail.
The reason I was asked for a explanation was that there was a person who was going around on league nights calling fouls on people for this. And he was getting away with it as well. Not for long there after.

 

[hon400ex]

I had a guy try and explain that to me too. If the OB was frozen to the short rail for example, I couldn't hit the OB and then the same rail with the cue ball. That rail was considered a dead rail as you say. The cue ball was supposed to hit the OB and then a different rail.
The reason I was asked for a explanation was that there was a person who was going around on league nights calling fouls on people for this. And he was getting away with it as well. Not for long there after.

Yes, this is what she was saying, too.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Funny that he was using that on any rail. There are 6 rails on the table. He was using that on any rail that had a frozen ball on it. Not just the end rail.

So essentially, one of the reasons was that he was badly misinformed himself and he was keeping people from playing a Safety on him with the frozen ball.

 

[oldschool1478]

Don't know if it applies to your league but:

OFFICIAL RULES OF THE BCA POOL LEAGUE
1-19 Legal Shot (AR p. 81)
1. For a shot to be legal, the first ball contacted by the cue ball must be a legal object
ball, or simultaneous contact with a legal and illegal object ball may occur. After that
contact:
a. any object ball must be pocketed, or;
b. any object ball or the cue ball must contact a cushion.
It is a foul if one of those requirements is not met.

2. If the ball used to meet the cushion contact requirement of Rule 1-19-1-b is declared
frozen to a cushion at the beginning of the shot, then that ball must leave the cushion it is
frozen to and then:
a. contact a cushion other than the one to which it was frozen, or;
b. contact another ball before it contacts the cushion to which it was frozen.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

As oldschool points out, in the OP's situation the rail in question isn't necessarily dead even for the 5 ball. If the 5 ball leaves the rail it can come back to it, so long as it comes back due to contact with another ball (it can't drift back to that rail due to table roll or being deflected back by hitting a crumb of chalk).

Don't know if this applies to APA though, and don't care.

 

[tatcat2000]

As oldschool points out, in the OP's situation the rail in question isn't necessarily dead even for the 5 ball. If the 5 ball leaves the rail it can come back to it, so long as it comes back due to contact with another ball (it can't drift back to that rail due to table roll or being deflected back by hitting a crumb of chalk).

As far as the highlighted part goes, that is true in BCAPL play. BCAPL Rule 1-19-2-b, as quoted earlier, applies.

However, under World Standardized Rules the requirement for the frozen ball to contact another ball before contacting the original cushion was dropped with the 2008 re-write. Under WSR, if that table roll or piece of chalk works in the shooter's favor, and the frozen ball drifts back to the original cushion, then tough luck to the player in the chair. It's a legal shot under WSR. WSR 8.4 applies.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

 

[Eddie May]

I have also heard this rule. I don't know where it comes from, but they play it in Colorado a lot (found out the hard way).... Not sure if there is a set of rules in this, but it has been adopted by others in the sport, so just be sure you are clear before you play any tournaments or gamble.

 

[CreeDo]

I think this non-rule arose because the girl and others misunderstood the actual rule.

What sucks is, even though it's good sense to establish rules beforehand, it's hard to imagine ironing out ALL the weird local rules that bangers come up with. With people who can actually play it's pretty easy... ("BCA rules? OK.") ...but with this chick, what would the conversation be like?

"OK, before we play, I just want to nail down a few things. You play ball in hand or behind the line? OK, what about scratches after the break? Take what you make, or open after the break? Are combos legal if it's open after the break? How about comboing with the 8? Call shot or slop counts? Do I have to call the obvious ones? What about combos and banks? OK, and the 8? Do shots have to go clean or is it ok to bump other balls on the way in? What if I graze the rail? Are safeties allowed? Do I have to announce them? Can I make a ball while playing safe or must I shoot again? Does something have to hit a rail after I hit a ball? What if the ball is frozen to the rail? What if I nudge a ball with my hand or with the stick? Can I cradle a ball with my hand so I can bridge over it? Can I use a jump cue? Are masse shots allowed? Are you allowed to make a spacer the width of your cue's butt between the CB and rail? How do I rack 'em? 8 on the break count? What if I scratch, is that a loss?... ."

etc.

Forty five minutes you've nailed down one local's version of the rules and you can now start your match.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Are you allowed to make a spacer the width of your cue's butt between the CB and rail? ...

The correct spacer is the diameter of a ball. And if you have to use a ball in play to measure the space, mark it with a small wet spot. Please don't confuse the conversation with your bogus versions of the rules -- you're not playing at the Boy's Club any more.