Lol Bob, broke?
No more Meucci for this guy
- Thread starter pongohops
- Start date
Screwing with logos does make a difference IMHO.
Imagine a sideways W Josswest. Worth a lot? Yup. But his later cues were constructed better, for sure. What if he gave somebody permission to replicate the old logo and they made new cues with that logo?
Scruggs has given permission to Janes to replicate his logo. Should Janes produce new cues with that logo?
Erwin has the tooling to reproduce the old Meucci logo. Should he produce some new cues with that logo?
It's one thing to put out a line of reproductions, Adam has done that with their classic line, but they have been marked as such. It's another thing to actually mark them exactly as the originals. One could almost consider it an in-house counterfeit.
To me, they are counterfeit cues because they are not marked in any way differently. In fact the person selling them makes no effort to distinguish them from the old cues at all.
Some of the old Meucci cues are appreciating very well, it is not inconceivable at all that putting cues on the market with exactly the same logo could disrupt the market in for the old cues.
Meucci can do what he likes with his logo of course. But I think that releasing cues to market with exactly the same old logo is simply not nice at best.
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Devalues? How do you know Bob is going broke? And if he was going broke why would you or anyone want to stop him from taking an order?
Sorry to be contrary on this but I kind of feel obligated to look at it from the maker's standpoint.
I make a product and sell it, it's gone whatever money I made on it is now in my account I can't make another penny on it. Why should I care what the secondary market does with it? This is why I personally don't ever say that my cases are collectible. I build cases for use now and if they someday reach collectible status then great for the people collecting them. But I reserve the right to make anything I want to include more versions of cases I have made before. Unless I have an explicit agreement with a customer not to reproduce a design I did for them. In which case it does not get reproduced.
Why should I have a perpetual obligation to people I don't even know to protect their "investment" into my production cues or cases? I mean I do understand if I were a purely custom cue maker making one of a kind cues and then I went into the production cue business and used all the custom designs, similar to what Dale Perry did. But Meucci makes production cues. The models with the originals logo and the models with the script logo are exactly the same.
I don't know why anyone feels that a cue maker gives up the right to change his logo when he wants to. That doesn't make sense to me from a maker's perspective. I just feel that the ONLY time anyone can be absolutely sure that a company or person isn't going to start making things the way they did them in a previous time is when that person or company is no longer making things at all.
An example, a friend was thinking of buying a cue and was told that the maker wouldn't make them that way ever again. He called the maker and the maker confirmed that they wouldn't do the cues that way ever again. So my friend bought it and paid a huge premium for it based on this information. He put the cue up on his site with a markup over the hugely inflated price he paid. About two weeks later he started getting reports of the cue maker taking orders for cues using that design. He called up and asked why and was told that the volume of orders had suddenly increased to the point where they felt like making them again. How does my buddy feel now that he is holding a $2500 cue that he paid $5000 for?
Point being that when the makers are still kicking then ANYTHING can happen even when they promise and swear that it won't.
And at the end of the day can you really blame someone for trying to make a living? What sort of world do we live in where we are so selfish as to tell the guy making cues now that he can't reproduce his older designs just because we don't want our current possessions to be possibly devalued? Sorry Bob but you need to find another way to make a living.
I think in all these situations the buyers have to look at it and evaluate the probabilities. Kevin said Ernie won't do the old Gina logo. Ernie is pretty well known for doing what he says so a collector of Gina cues can reasonably count on no old Gina design showing up on a new cue with the old logo. Otherwise for a manufacturer, all bets are off because manufacturers operate in a much different way than small shops do. When you have to make payroll you can't turn down orders based on principle.
Ok, all that said I do however agree that it's confusing to bring back this logo. I also think that Meucci should have done something a little different, like put 2012 on the cues or something just to be absolutely sure that there is no misrepresentation and to preserve the eras.
Anyway, it's just not a black and white issue as I see it from the maker's perspective.
The original manufacturer has every right to use whatever version of his own logo that he likes whenever he likes.
The market for older Meucci cues has nothing to do with the current state of the Meucci company. If Meucci today had a financial stake in it then that's different. But they don't and in fact many people downplay the newer Meuccis by saying that the "originals" logo ones were much better which is downright disruptive to the current market for new Meuccis.
I am playing devil's advocate here using my perspective as a maker. What if Bob Meucci himself feels that there is ZERO difference between the originals logo cues and the ones made today? How should he feel when someone on the forum says that the older ones were better and advises that no one should buy a new Meucci but should instead seek to buy one with the Meucci Originals logo if they really are set on getting a Meucci?
Personally I'd be a little pissed off if I were Bob and I see people advocating trading in the old cues rather than buying my new stuff.
As for other makers being given permission to replicate logos if they do them under license then that is between them and the owner of the logo. Obviously Scott Erwin is not allowed to make a line of Meucci cues and Dan Janes is not looking to make Tim Scruggs cues. If these makers put those logos on cues then it is done as a repair/restoration project to replace what was originally there. I am not condoning any sort of fraud but I feel as though some people would like accuse Bob Meucci of acting fraudulently for deciding to use his own logo.
Sorry I just don't agree with this. I feel that a manufacturer owns all versions of their logo and can use them in any way they choose to. Consumers who choose to trade in goods as collectibles have to accept the risk that a company can go retro at any time and thus dilute the market with confusing examples that are similar to yesteryear's products.
That's just the way life works. Moral of the story? Don't collect Meucci cues, collect Ginas.
You seem to be missing the point. Its not that he reproduced the cue. It that he reproduced the cue and put Meucci Original on it. If he would have made the same cue and put Meucci in script it would have been perfectly fine or even some other type of logo. Believe it or not his earlier cues were much better quality then the cues he makes today. Anything before 1989 was pretty good quality. Today he uses a lot of cheap materials in his cue, such as a lot of plastic
So are you saying the on the day he decided to change the logo all the cues made the day before with Meucci Orginals on them were better than all the ones made the next day with Meucci in script on it?
FWIW I am pretty familiar with Meuccis from the 80s/90s having been a cue dealer.
The Black dot shaft is 12.75mm tip and it is suppose to be direct competition for the 314-2 shaft( which is a darn joke to be kind)
The Ultimate Weapon is 11.75 mm at the tip and is suppose to be Meucci's answer to the Z shaft( yeah right)
Having experience with both of them, I would suggest you just use a house cue because they both play like Sh*t....
Lucasi has the Zero flex point and flex point slim/ OB has the classic and the pro versions hell you could even go with a Poison Venom shaft and come out better than anything you would get from Meucci...
Then that has nothing to do with what logo is on the cues. The physical condition of your cues has nothing to do with the physical condition of any cues now being made.
What if Bob Meucci does not agree with you? What if he were to say that the 84-5 and the 2012 repro were made exactly the same way? Or were to tell you that the new one was even better?
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I've been waiting for this subject to come up. I've kept my mouth shut long enough. zuzubab1, Brett Angel on Ebay is a piece of shit. He has lied so much in his listings it just pisses me off. And people actually believe his lies.
First he undercut all the J&J America dealers on Ebay...he sold stuff at cost and surely wasn't making any money but screwed all the other dealers with his cheap prices. For example...he was selling all his shafts and break shafts 2 for $33 when all the other dealers were charging $29-$49 for a shaft. Of course everyone went and paid $33 for 2 shafts and the rest of the dealers sold none. J&J finally cut him off.
Then he was selling the oddball Meucci Cues starting at $.99 and selling them for whatever he got. This went on for around one year. The rest of the Meucci dealers were forced to sell the same cue for $199 Buy it Now price. He ruined this for other dealers...and now Meucci is catering to this piece of shit even after the complaints about him.
Now...I have a huge collection of Meucci cues from the 1970's-1980's and now people are wondering if these are Originals, or the new fake Originals being made. All this makes my real originals not worth as much.
All this because of Brett Angel on Ebay. Yeah...great guy.
Of course he can, in fact I said so, so it would seem a bit silly for you to say so as if you are somehow informing me of it. I in fact said it first, so I informed you! LOL! :wink:
I never contradicted that statement, so why act as if I did?
It still isn't friendly. It isn't nice. That is a fact as evidenced by the general reaction to it.
Business isn't nice of course, but then that's the nature of it.
You can argue the point all you like but it is obviously pissing off potential cue buyers as well as Meucci owners as evidenced by their testimony here.
So you can keep spitting in the wind if you like but you can't make people like what they don't like. Just sayin.
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Wasn't saying you did, was reiterating the point.
Huh? Not friendly or nice? Is it friendly or nice for people to say that cues with an earlier logo is better than current ones? People's reaction to something is not evidence of whether the action is nice or not. I bet there are plenty of "people" who are well pleased with the cues that they are getting with the originals logo. If does that then make it a nice move on Meucci's part. Come on Doc this weak logic is not your style
Well I think that the essence is a question of whether a production maker SHOULD have the right to make cues with any design/logo that they want to at any time? Logos that they own of course.
Ok. People get pissed about a lot of things but that doesn't mean that their perspective is the right one.
I don't consider it spitting in the wind to give my opinion from my perspective as a maker. Maybe some people will take offense at hearing what this situation looks like from a manufacturer's viewpoint but that's not something that stops me from sharing it. My view on this may not be shared by all makers either.
Funny that Schon never got this amount of criticism for putting the umlaut back into their logo. First it was there then it was gone for a lot of years and now it's back.
But, you're right, once people have formed an opinion it's hard to change their minds. I suppose if I were invested into Meucci cues with the old logo then I'd be upset if Bob came out with repros of them as well I guess.
TheThaiger
Banned
I've been waiting for this subject to come up. I've kept my mouth shut long enough. zuzubab1, Brett Angel on Ebay is a piece of shit. He has lied so much in his listings it just pisses me off. And people actually believe his lies.
First he undercut all the J&J America dealers on Ebay...he sold stuff at cost and surely wasn't making any money but screwed all the other dealers with his cheap prices. For example...he was selling all his shafts and break shafts 2 for $33 when all the other dealers were charging $29-$49 for a shaft. Of course everyone went and paid $33 for 2 shafts and the rest of the dealers sold none. J&J finally cut him off.
Then he was selling the oddball Meucci Cues starting at $.99 and selling them for whatever he got. This went on for around one year. The rest of the Meucci dealers were forced to sell the same cue for $199 Buy it Now price. He ruined this for other dealers...and now Meucci is catering to this piece of shit even after the complaints about him.
Now...I have a huge collection of Meucci cues from the 1970's-1980's and now people are wondering if these are Originals, or the new fake Originals being made. All this makes my real originals not worth as much.
All this because of Brett Angel on Ebay. Yeah...great guy.
What benefit would he get from selling at cost?
I am one of them. I was there in the Golden Cue in Memphis the night Bob Meucci first showed up. I thought they were crap back then. Over the years, I have not seen anything to change that opinion.
I like the original "originals"
I agree with you about the quality in the '80s. Regarding the "plastic", Balabushka, Gene Balner and Frank Paradise were criticized for using plastic as well.
My opinion is no more than that. But I've owned five actual "MEUCCI ORIGINALS" made in the '80s, and they all played better than the two made with the script logo that I've owned. As I stated in a previous post I could not interchange the shafts between the two script logo cues, - they didn't line up at the joint!
For those who say that ALL Meuccis are junk, I think they may be bitter because they don't like BMs policies, and are not being fair in judging the original "originals". In the '80s there were MANY pro players using Meuccis with great success.
I still have three of them for sale and offer 100% money back guarantee.
I agree with you about the quality in the '80s. Regarding the "plastic", Balabushka, Gene Balner and Frank Paradise were criticized for using plastic as well.
My opinion is no more than that. But I've owned five actual "MEUCCI ORIGINALS" made in the '80s, and they all played better than the two made with the script logo that I've owned. As I stated in a previous post I could not interchange the shafts between the two script logo cues, - they didn't line up at the joint!
For those who say that ALL Meuccis are junk, I think they may be bitter because they don't like BMs policies, and are not being fair in judging the original "originals". In the '80s there were MANY pro players using Meuccis with great success.
I still have three of them for sale and offer 100% money back guarantee.
Schon isn't making sharp pointed cues either...so it's kind of not the same deal, but I get your point.
The thing is that Meucci must be aware that their reputation was suffering, so one would think they would be working hard to improve it. I don't think this latest development reflects that kind of effort.
Whether or not people are right in how they think or feel on the matter isn't really the point I think. Meucci may or may not have deserved the loss of reputation they had, but it certainly seems to be quite real to a fair number of people. We hear about it virtually constantly.
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meucci
I know this topic is about the logo .
I could care less what logo Mr Bob Meucci puts on his cues.
I bought 3 black dot meucci and all 3 fell apart and Meucci wouldnt warranty any of them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It was a total rip off.
Meucci could put a solid gold logo on, but it makes no difference.
The 3 cues I bought ( were time released shit) . 6 months and they were covered in cracks and the shafts were delaminating.
MMike
I know this topic is about the logo .
I could care less what logo Mr Bob Meucci puts on his cues.
I bought 3 black dot meucci and all 3 fell apart and Meucci wouldnt warranty any of them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It was a total rip off.
Meucci could put a solid gold logo on, but it makes no difference.
The 3 cues I bought ( were time released shit) . 6 months and they were covered in cracks and the shafts were delaminating.
MMike
Mike:
For those cues you describe, would this acronym apply?
[M]anaged
[E]xperiment
[U]nderwhich
[C]ue
[C]atastrophically
[I]mplodes
All funnin' aside, I have a Meucci 97-11 that Ryan Theewen ("ratcues", of Muellers) completely rebuilt, and I have to say, after the rebuild, it's one of my favorite cues -- playing-wise and looks-wise.
-Sean