Pros and Centerball

[SakuJack]

What does that mean?

pj
chgo

The most common explanation is it means how well you hit the ball. Accelerating through the cue ball as much as is possible while maintaining a smooth stroke. In my opinion, it's not just about where you hit the ball, as you said earlier, it's about when you hit it, too.

I'm assuming you know this already, though, and are asking in order to make a point?

 

[Island Drive]

^^^
That's pretty much it right there.

"Spin" or "english" only exaggerates what you want the cue ball to do, and you don't need to go very far off center to achieve lots of spin. Its all in the stroke.

There's one principle in pool that's never wrong ''less is more''. Efren in his prime different story (almost completely opposite) but now....mother time is showing its effect' as it does to us All.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
The amount of spin you get is determined by where you hit the cue ball, not by the "purity" of your stroke (whatever that is). If someone who has never hit a ball before hits it on the same spot as a pro hits it, they'll get the same amount of spin.

The difference between an experienced player and a beginner is that the experienced player hits the spot he wants to.

SakuJack:
What about how well the ball is timed?

Me:
What does that mean?

SakuJack:
The most common explanation is it means how well you hit the ball. Accelerating through the cue ball as much as is possible while maintaining a smooth stroke.
...
I'm assuming you know this already, though, and are asking in order to make a point?

I had no idea what you meant. I still don't think either one of us has a clear idea what you mean.

SakuJack:
In my opinion, it's not just about where you hit the ball, as you said earlier, it's about when you hit it, too.

If you hit the same spot at the same speed and the same angle, it makes no difference whether you're accelerating or decelerating - or anything else for that matter.

pj
chgo

 

[pt109]

The amount of spin you get is determined by where you hit the cue ball, not by the "purity" of your stroke (whatever that is). If someone who has never hit a ball before hits it on the same spot as a pro hits it, they'll get the same amount of spin.

The difference between an experienced player and a beginner is that the experienced player hits the spot he wants to.

pj
chgo

I don't think so, PJ.
Here's a shot Jimmy Moore showed me when I was a kid....
...you can tell someone where to hit it all day, but if he doesn't have a
stroke, he can't do it....lotta people 'club' it and get nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0vvNXHltWs

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't think so, PJ.
Here's a shot Jimmy Moore showed me when I was a kid....
...you can tell someone where to hit it all day, but if he doesn't have a
stroke, he can't do it....lotta people 'club' it and get nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0vvNXHltWs

If he hits it hard enough and the right fullness on the object ball and in the right place on the cue ball -- and beginners often fail at all of those -- anyone can make this shot. I've seen lots of beginners and intermediates amazed at how much draw they can get if only they hit the ball low. The problem is to get them to hit low and accurately. Mike Page has a good YouTube about this -- see the handle "fargobilliards".

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you can tell someone where to hit it all day, but if he doesn't have a stroke, he can't do it...

What he can't do is hit it where you tell him.

pj
chgo

 

[pt109]

If he hits it hard enough and the right fullness on the object ball and in the right place on the cue ball -- and beginners often fail at all of those -- anyone can make this shot. I've seen lots of beginners and intermediates amazed at how much draw they can get if only they hit the ball low. The problem is to get them to hit low and accurately. Mike Page has a good YouTube about this -- see the handle "fargobilliards".

A good site, Bob...although I wish he wouldn't use cheap balls.:smile:
I can show it, but personally, I'm not to good at explaining it. And even
some good players can't seem to do it.

Sometimes I tell them about the martial arts concept of 'sticky thumb'...
...this is when you don't just block a punch and 'slap' it away..you keep
your thumb on his arm so your open him up.
...and then do that with your tip on the cue-ball....but all I seem to do
is talk 'around' it.

A lot of things aren't easily explained....when John Daley was out-driving
the PGA Tour, someone discovered that his club-head speed was actually
slower than the golfers he was hitting past.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think it's the other way around, LH.
A player stays in line because he spins the ball.

I feel the trick is to let the tip go WITH the spin.....so you aim closer to center.
...and STROKE it, don't club it...a stroke is a gradual acceleration where
the tip stays on the ball just a nano second longer.
Clubbing is starting the cue too quick.

Here's an example of a player that gets all the english he needs...
..notice he looks like he is addressing the cue-ball center.
https://www.google.com/url?url=http...+olney&usg=AFQjCNGiTNyKCimyFjKCKJ7KZKZQxTAH9w

When you see a player cue a way to the side it means that the tip is
probably moving back towards center on the final stroke, thus he's
taking off what he's putting on, resulting in LESS spin.
Let your tip go WITH the spin...that's why you see chalk marks from
draw shots..why would side spin be any different?

PT,

Well stated. It CAN be done both ways but, to me, the spin is invaluable.

Best Regards to All,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Joey's post #39.

Well said!

Best Wishes to All,

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The amount of spin you get is determined by where you hit the cue ball, not by the "purity" of your stroke (whatever that is). If someone who has never hit a ball before hits it on the same spot as a pro hits it, they'll get the same amount of spin.

The difference between an experienced player and a beginner is that the experienced player hits the spot he wants to.

pj
chgo

So my stroke is just as good as Semih Sayginer's. All I need to work on is tip placement. Cool, thanks!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pt109:
Here's an example of a player that gets all the english he needs...
..notice he looks like he is addressing the cue-ball center.
https://www.google.com/url?url=http:...KJ7KZKZQxTAH9w

That's not a spin shot. In fact, he hit a little on the wrong side of the CB (left side, which should have made the OB go away from the far corner pocket, not toward it), but still made the shot because he hit the rounded part of the tit on the near corner pocket.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The amount of spin you get is determined by where you hit the cue ball, not by the "purity" of your stroke (whatever that is). If someone who has never hit a ball before hits it on the same spot as a pro hits it, they'll get the same amount of spin.

The difference between an experienced player and a beginner is that the experienced player hits the spot he wants to.

pj
chgo

DogsPlayingPool:
So my stroke is just as good as Semih Sayginer's. All I need to work on is tip placement. Cool, thanks!

If you need to work on tip placement, then your stroke isn't as good as Sayginer's.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

So my stroke is just as good as Semih Sayginer's. All I need to work on is tip placement. Cool, thanks!

You will also probably have to work on your speed. I suspect that Sayginer can hit the ball harder than you can for a given accuracy.

 

[pt109]

That's not a spin shot. In fact, he hit a little on the wrong side of the CB (left side, which should have made the OB go away from the far corner pocket, not toward it), but still made the shot because he hit the rounded part of the tit on the near corner pocket.

pj
chgo

Damn, I think you're right, PJ....I thought he was doing it a little too easy.

I've seen that shot done a lot down the long rail, hitting half a diamond
out from the pocket....a couple guys were aiming center ball and cross-stroking on the final delivery....I know one player well who aims the wrong
side of the ball when he wants a lot of english.

ps..I just remembered that I made that shot once by accident....
...the object-ball was a bit closer to the pocket...I was just trying to
get it away without losing whitey....it went in and he quit me....
...even though I told him it was a fluke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've seen that shot done a lot down the long rail, hitting half a diamond out from the pocket...

Yeah, it's possible the long way even without sidespin on the CB if you cross the OB to get contact-induced spin - a fairly common 1 pocket shot.

pj
chgo

 

[EagleMan]

The amount of spin you get is determined by where you hit the cue ball, not by the "purity" of your stroke (whatever that is). If someone who has never hit a ball before hits it on the same spot as a pro hits it, they'll get the same amount of spin.

The difference between an experienced player and a beginner is that the experienced player hits the spot he wants to.

pj
chgo

I understand where you're coming from and generally agree...sort of anyway.

The first timer certainly will NOT get as much draw spin as the pro.

As far as side is concerned...honest question. Do you think that an accelerating and FAST stroke hitting a given spot on the CB would produce the same rate of spin as a soft decelerating banger stroke would impart?

Not a trick question. I honestly don't know.

EagleMan

PS: Did you mean to say that AT THE SAME STROKE SPEED the banger will get as much spin as the pro from a given CB contact point?

 

[pt109]

Yeah, it's possible the long way even without sidespin on the CB if you cross the OB to get contact-induced spin - a fairly common 1 pocket shot.

pj
chgo

I can do that shot...but I never thought of the contact-induced spin
helping me....good one...that's why I read AZ.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The first timer certainly will NOT get as much draw spin as the pro.

He will if he hits the same CB spot at the same angle and speed.

Do you think that an accelerating and FAST stroke hitting a given spot on the CB would produce the same rate of spin as a soft decelerating banger stroke would impart?

Yes. Not as many RPMs, but that's not what's important in pool (except for follow and draw). In pool the spin-to-speed ratio is what's important, and that doesn't change with speed - only with tip offset.

By the way, it doesn't matter whether the cue is accelerating or decelerating at impact.

pj
chgo

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

If you need to work on tip placement, then your stroke isn't as good as Sayginer's.

pj
chgo

You will also probably have to work on your speed. I suspect that Sayginer can hit the ball harder than you can for a given accuracy.

Right. And that is what I refer to as a pure stroke. The ability to deliver the cue on line in a smooth accelerating fashion to the intended spot on the cue ball, even at speed.

 

[book collector]

Inside out, outside in , shhhhh I can't say anymore for right now.