Pbia question

Bob Jewett said:
So far I haven't found a video that illustrates this well. I think we need a candid slo-mo of his isolated left arm during a match.
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Actually, it was quite evident in that Judd Trump video, if you watch his elbow carefully from the camera angles that offered an unobstructed view of his left arm. (You can even see it in those "head-on" camera angles if you watch the tip of his elbow behind his head -- you'll see the elbow dip on the pull-back, "pin," and then the forward delivery occurs with the elbow pinned.)

Were you not able to see it, or do you mean that it'd be nice to have a "slo-mo" version of Judd's stroke through the whole delivery?

EDIT: just found a good example, that has a reference marker in the background to see the very slight elbow dip during pull-back for the final delivery:

Powerful accurate screw-back. Notice the bottom border of the white "Shanghai Masters" signage in the background that Judd's elbow tip lines-up with. Then, during pull-back for the delivery stroke, Judd's elbow "dips" under the bottom border of that white sign in the background, pins, and his forward delivery commences with the elbow in that final pinned position under the bottom border of that white sign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=13m10s​

-Sean
 
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A little late replying, but I strictly teach the pendulum stroke.

Bob
 
sfleinen said:
... EDIT: just found a good example, that has a reference marker in the background to see the very slight elbow dip during pull-back for the final delivery: ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI#t=13m10s...
-Sean
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I think we need a much better video. What I think I see for the elbow is slow drop on the back stroke then fast up and down as he comes forward. Maybe someone can do single frame captures.
 
Forget Judd's elbow, look at the motion of the cue. It is moving on a single plane during feathering and backswing, butt of the cue doesn't rise. When you look at just the cue, the motion does resemble more piston than a pendulum, but yes, his elbow does look kind of pinned. How you name his stroke style is not important anyway.

You need more moving parts to achieve such motion of the cue. Absolutely more difficult to learn. Some players need to compensate more with grip and elbow drop on the backstroke to achieve the same cue motion. Watch the master at work, John Higgins. His elbow drop on backstroke is quite extreme sometimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuUw0sd_NfA

I'm sure you've all seen how Chris Melling plays at Mosconi Cup. He also doesn't let the butt of the cue to rise on the backswing. Another case of extreme elbow drop on long backswing.

Pool doesn't have such tight pockets, so all of this is probably not required. However, it is nice to know that most accurate potters in the world all slide the cue on their chin. It would not surprise me to see future pool players adopting this technique in years to come, especially if equipment becomes tougher.
 
predator said:
Forget Judd's elbow, look at the motion of the cue. It is moving on a single plane during feathering and backswing, butt of the cue doesn't rise. When you look at just the cue, the motion does resemble more piston than a pendulum, but yes, his elbow does look kind of pinned. How you name his stroke style is not important anyway.

You need more moving parts to achieve such motion of the cue. Absolutely more difficult to learn. Some players need to compensate more with grip and elbow drop on the backstroke to achieve the same cue motion. Watch the master at work, John Higgins. His elbow drop on backstroke is quite extreme sometimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuUw0sd_NfA

I'm sure you've all seen how Chris Melling plays at Mosconi Cup. He also doesn't let the butt of the cue to rise on the backswing. Another case of extreme elbow drop on long backswing.

Pool doesn't have such tight pockets, so all of this is probably not required. However, it is nice to know that most accurate potters in the world all slide the cue on their chin. It would not surprise me to see future pool players adopting this technique in years to come, especially if equipment becomes tougher.
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predator,

I agree with you. IMHO It's all about the motion of the cue & both gentlemen move it in a piston like motion as straight back & as straight into the cue ball as they possibly can. It seems some pay far too much attention to one or two body parts & fail to pay attention to the motion of the cue. In golf the flight of the ball will tell you what you did regardless of what you think you did. The same goes for the cue, it's path will tell you what one did or did not do given some know parameters such as how one holds the cue. It's the path of the cue that is important. Again IMHO.

Regards &
 
predator...The obvious problem with your assertion, is that not everyone CAN bend down to put the chin on the cue (and it doesn't matter anyway). Some players have difficulty with a stance that low (physical limitations, injuries, etc.), and as such, should not be "required" to do so...even though some instructors will insist that their stance has to be that way, to play well (it doesn't). Stance is individual...there is no one correct stance for everyone.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

predator said:
It would not surprise me to see future pool players adopting this technique in years to come, especially if equipment becomes tougher.
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Scott Lee said:
predator...The obvious problem with your assertion, is that not everyone CAN bend down to put the chin on the cue (and it doesn't matter anyway). Some players have difficulty with a stance that low (physical limitations, injuries, etc.), and as such, should not be "required" to do so...even though some instructors will insist that their stance has to be that way, to play well (it doesn't). Stance is individual...there is no one correct stance for everyone.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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That's true. Not everyone can bend that low and a praticular stance style will never be required. This is especially true for guys who have played certain style for years.
But children can be taught just about anything much quicker and easier. My guess is that young kids of tomorrow (or maybe even today?) aspiring to become pros will probably be taught to use chin on cue technique or something close to it. Cheers.
 
predator said:
That's true. Not everyone can bend that low and a praticular stance style will never be required. This is especially true for guys who have played certain style for years.
But children can be taught just about anything much quicker and easier. My guess is that young kids of tomorrow (or maybe even today?) aspiring to become pros will probably be taught to use chin on cue technique or something close to it. Cheers.
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predator,

I'm not so sure chin cueing will be taught here in the USA. However it seems most snooker players where accuracy is at a premium seem to utililize a piston like movement of the cue.

I for one natually gravitated to it with a very low head position, but never as low as having the cue running along my chin. So my point is that it is not totally necessary to get THAT low in order to still execute a piston like stroke. I ruptured a disc in my back 3 yrs. ago & have had a slight back issue before that from a baseball injury more than 20 yrs. ago & I have always been able to use the piston like stroke.

I hope you are correct and that it will be taught at least while one can reasonable & efficiently execute it.

Best Regards to You &
 
Scott Lee said:
Oh behave, Tony! :D There are poolplayers with a flat belly? Say it ain't so Joe! LOL Happy New Year to you my friend!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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My belly's flat when I'm laying upon on the floor -- perfectly flat, in fact. And, I can make my belly into a six-pack... if I lay upon a muffin baking tray that holds six muffins!

:p
-Sean <-- actually, is not in bad shape, although should get back into regular running
 
sfleinen said:
... Great example -- Judd Trump is possibly as perfect example as they come, marrying a pendulum stroke with chinning the cue. The only slight "oddity" is that during the actual pull-back for the delivery stroke, Judd will drop the elbow slightly (barely perceptible in some cases), but the delivery stroke itself is pure pinned elbow, snapping it closed like a mousetrap.

-Sean
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Here is a better shot of Trump from the side on a power shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7mpKezjoo&feature=youtu.be&t=4m55s
I'll leave it to others to describe the sequence of motion on the shot.

In the same video a little earlier he has a much softer shot on which his elbow seems not to move at all.
 
Scott Lee said:
PaulM...Just so you know, not all of us agree with Bob that a pendulum stroke won't work for those players who put their chin directly on the cue. I've had many students with that type of stance, who learned how to utilize it just fine.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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The last time I watched Allison, she put her chin on the cue and used a textbook pendilum stroke.

Steve
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Why? Bob, I'm not knocking you in any way. I am intrigued and want to hear more about why you are pendulum-only.

Thank you.
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For most players, the pendilum stroke offers the easiest stroke to provide consistency. It has fewer moving parts, which means fewer things to go wrong. And it offers a level cue at the point of contact with the cue ball, which is really the only time it's needed.
Bob and I both practice the KISS theory to teaching pool.
Steve
 
randyg said:
KISS works well.

I teach KISS to cover my A.S.S.

randyg
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Good answer! ;)

Had a good class yesterday. Felt good to be teaching again. First student I can recall who had flawless PEP on the initial video!
 
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