Johnny Archer's Mind

[TheSneak]

SPOILER ALERT: In the Turning Stone hot seat match between SVB and Archer, SVB breaks dry in the hill-hill rack and leaves a full look at the 1, only 4.5' away (half the table length). Archer studies it for a good 3-4 minutes then chooses to push... into a longer look at the 1 with a different angle. When I was watching this match I did a double take. I couldn't believe it. I saw at least 4 high percentage safety options off the first shot, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he chose to push, other than the obvious "I would rather my opponent shoot this safe than me." I have immense respect for Archer's game, and he is so deliberate with is shot selection that I know he had a good reason for it. Is there some 9 ball strategy I'm missing? He won the match off the decision, but it seemed like it was due to a bad roll for Shane more than anything.

For reference: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28459795 at 1:31:00

 

[ChrisBanks]

I watched that match. I would want to skim the right side of the 1 and try to hit the 6 with the cueball. And I think Johnny would have been successful with it. But maybe he was afraid to push the 1 too close to the pocket.

I think any other options carry a little more risk.

 

[TheSneak]

I watched that match. I would want to skim the right side of the 1 and try to hit the 6 with the cueball. And I think Johnny would have been successful with it. But maybe he was afraid to push the 1 too close to the pocket.

I think any other options carry a little more risk.

I agree. That would have been my first choice as well. He could have even played a 2-way where he banks the 1 to the bottom right pocket, has a shot on the 2 if he makes it, and gets behind the cluster if he misses.

 

[Fatboy]

SPOILER ALERT: In the Turning Stone hot seat match between SVB and Archer, SVB breaks dry in the hill-hill rack and leaves a full look at the 1, only 4.5' away (half the table length). Archer studies it for a good 3-4 minutes then chooses to push... into a longer look at the 1 with a different angle. When I was watching this match I did a double take. I couldn't believe it. I saw at least 4 high percentage safety options off the first shot, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he chose to push, other than the obvious "I would rather my opponent shoot this safe than me." I have immense respect for Archer's game, and he is so deliberate with is shot selection that I know he had a good reason for it. Is there some 9 ball strategy I'm missing? He won the match off the decision, but it seemed like it was due to a bad roll for Shane more than anything.

For reference: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28459795 at 1:31:00

it was a trap shot , he had to move the one by the 9 or give it back to JA. SVB took the bait.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Honestly, I don't entirely understand the strategy of pushing when you can see the low-ball. Minus a few extraordinary situations such as a hanging 9-ball, pushing should be reserved for situations where you can't see the low-ball at all and likely can't kick at it, either.

The only thing I can think of is, Archer was VERY concerned about the location of the 9 and wanted to provide a safety that didn't put the 9 in-play. Fortunate for him, Shane inadvertently did this and provided Archer enough of a window to sink the easy combo.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I watched that match. I would want to skim the right side of the 1 and try to hit the 6 with the cueball. And I think Johnny would have been successful with it. But maybe he was afraid to push the 1 too close to the pocket.

I think any other options carry a little more risk.

This is the shot I would have tried too but perhaps you're right about what Johnny was thinking. At hill-hill, hitting that 1 too thick or missing it altogether has to be racing through your head a little. By pushing the cue-ball away from the 1, the likelihood that Shane will try to fan the 1 is minimized.

Still, I don't see how pushing is anything but a weak play. At best, you're hoping for a 50/50 outcome. At worst, you're selling out but you rarely win off a push. At least, that's the rule in my world. But I'm no Johnny Archer.

 

[PoolBum]

it was a trap shot , he had to move the one by the 9 or give it back to JA. SVB took the bait.

If Shane "had to move the 1 by the 9" if he took the shot, then why wouldn't Johnny "have to move the 1 by the 9" if Shane decided to give the shot back?

 

[PoolBum]

Archer studies it for a good 3-4 minutes then chooses to push... into a longer look at the 1 with a different angle.

I was curious about the time Johnny took. He pushed out 2 1/2 minutes after Shane broke dry.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I feel a need to say, criticizing Archer's play here feels a bit odd to me. I have a ton of respect for the way Archer plays and can say with sincerity that I often learn something when watching him. There's no doubt he knows more about 9ball than I do. With that said, I'm confident in my thought-process in regards to 9ball and feel either I come up with the absolute correct decision or a good second-best nearly all the time. I really can't believe I disagree with Archer's choice so much here. It'd be nice to hear from someone who agrees with the play and their reason for it.

 

[Fatboy]

"Its the old Scorpion trap" is what JA said on the phone

 

[Fatboy]

If Shane "had to move the 1 by the 9" if he took the shot, then why wouldn't Johnny "have to move the 1 by the 9" if Shane decided to give the shot back?

thats right, he took the chance that SVB would shoot, and he did. it was a trap. we talked about it right after the match, coincendtaly he just called me and i mentioned this thread, otherwise i wouldnt have mentioned it. he is hanging out with Shannon, when they get together-if they were videoed talking it would be epic, even Mel, JA's wife said so. Those guys swapping stories is fun to listen to, man i wish i was there, back seat driving. Actually driving, JA is the worst driver in the world!!! he really is lol. :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

 

[RunoutJJ]

SPOILER ALERT: In the Turning Stone hot seat match between SVB and Archer, SVB breaks dry in the hill-hill rack and leaves a full look at the 1, only 4.5' away (half the table length). Archer studies it for a good 3-4 minutes then chooses to push... into a longer look at the 1 with a different angle. When I was watching this match I did a double take. I couldn't believe it. I saw at least 4 high percentage safety options off the first shot, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he chose to push, other than the obvious "I would rather my opponent shoot this safe than me." I have immense respect for Archer's game, and he is so deliberate with is shot selection that I know he had a good reason for it. Is there some 9 ball strategy I'm missing? He won the match off the decision, but it seemed like it was due to a bad roll for Shane more than anything.

For reference: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28459795 at 1:31:00

You're sure about that then??

 

[PoolBum]

thats right, he took the chance that SVB would shoot, and he did. it was a trap. we talked about it right after the match, coincendtaly he just called me and i mentioned this thread, otherwise i wouldnt have mentioned it. he is hanging out with Shannon, when they get together-if they were videoed talking it would be epic, even Mel, JA's wife said so. Those guys swapping stories is fun to listen to, man i wish i was there, back seat driving. Actually driving, JA is the worst driver in the world!!! he really is lol. :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

I see, so he was relying on or at least hoping that Shane would take the shot. It would be interesting to know if Johnny already had a shot in mind if Shane passed the shot back to him, and if he did whether or not it was the same shot that Shane took.

 

[TATE]

SPOILER ALERT: In the Turning Stone hot seat match between SVB and Archer, SVB breaks dry in the hill-hill rack and leaves a full look at the 1, only 4.5' away (half the table length). Archer studies it for a good 3-4 minutes then chooses to push... into a longer look at the 1 with a different angle. When I was watching this match I did a double take. I couldn't believe it. I saw at least 4 high percentage safety options off the first shot, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he chose to push, other than the obvious "I would rather my opponent shoot this safe than me." I have immense respect for Archer's game, and he is so deliberate with is shot selection that I know he had a good reason for it. Is there some 9 ball strategy I'm missing? He won the match off the decision, but it seemed like it was due to a bad roll for Shane more than anything.

For reference: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28459795 at 1:31:00

It was an unusual situation since the 7 and 8 blocked both the typical cueball and object ball safety route paths. On both Johnny's and Shane's shots, I would have have preferred to cross over the one and bank it straight back just past the 7 and used the 8 as a cue ball blocker. But that bank would have to be perfect. If the one leaked back toward the corner or touched the 7 seven odds are it would be a sellout.

This is a difficult safe - he probably figured to give it to Shane but Shane went the other way.

 

[3RAILKICK]

When I watched this, I thought-just play safe. But where? Both men have a great cueball, but neither wanted to risk the game on a safety that leaked out.

JA changed the angle to the 1 to closer to straight on. I'm guessing that holding the cb to use the 7 and 3 as blockers was a little easier than from the previous angle. The speed to send the 1 down near the 9 was going to make getting in line with the 7,3 more difficult with the cb wanting to travel more from the first positioning.

I think SVB was trying to lay the 1 on the end rail, in the line of the 7,3 to make any long flight jump shot that much more difficult.

SVB came within 2 layers of paint on the 3 of pulling it off. The 3 was on the spot, moved about 2 balls, while the cb got to the bottom rail-a very thin hit.(SVB blocked our view as he watched how close it was going to be). Nudging the 3 opened the blocker lane.

Game over.

I do wonder if JA would have hit the same shot, if it were given back to him-maybe there's something else; I don't see what these guys see.

A heck of a match.

 

[RunoutJJ]

It was an unusual situation since the 7 and 8 blocked both the typical cueball and object ball safety route paths. On both Johnny's and Shane's shots, I would have have preferred to cross over the one and bank it straight back just past the 7 and used the 8 as a cue ball blocker. But that bank would have to be perfect. If the one leaked back toward the corner or touched the 7 seven odds are it would be a sellout.

This is a difficult safe - he probably figured to give it to Shane but Shane went the other way.

This type of a safe is not a good safe. Maybe if it was early on against a weaker opponent but this is Hill Hill against SVB. You dont hit safes like this against guys like Shane. You have to play a safe that leaves SVB a kick that is hard to control. Worst yet JA could leave it off the rail and give Shane the window to run the whole rack.

All in all I think if JA takes a solid 3 or 4 mintues to plan out the first shot of case game it wasnt easy in any way shape or form. Funny but I like JA's push because it opened up the shot for more cueball movement or speed if playing a safe. If I was Shane I would've handed it back to him. Obvisouly im not Shane and Im behind a computer screen judging the play of two of the world's best so what so I know

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Honestly, I don't entirely understand the strategy of pushing when you can see the low-ball. Minus a few extraordinary situations such as a hanging 9-ball, pushing should be reserved for situations where you can't see the low-ball at all and likely can't kick at it, either.

I agree. Pushing puts you at an automatic disadvantage because the other player gets to choose who will shoot, so it should only be done when you're already at an even worse disadvantage. It's a way to try to improve your odds to 50/50.

pj
chgo

 

[Fatboy]

I see, so he was relying on or at least hoping that Shane would take the shot. It would be interesting to know if Johnny already had a shot in mind if Shane passed the shot back to him, and if he did whether or not it was the same shot that Shane took.

He told me right after the match, that he "Figured Shane would take the shot", "and i'm glad he did" , It went to how he planned it 100%. (I dont know what his plan was if SVB gave it back, if we talk before this thread gets old i'll ask him) Give me a day or 2, This is no knock on SVB, it was just how Shane played a shot. I just want to be clear if SVB reads this that he knows its not a knock, he did great today playing Daz, I didnt watch it but someone was txtng me the score and i was txting JA the score-he was interested in that match. kinda cool.

I usually don't watch his (JA) matches, (except M-Cup) but when i do, we sometimes talk about them-only if JA wants to. In this case he did, and that shot is what we talked about the most, and the 3(?) ball he rolled out on in the M-cup playing Nickey V who passed it back and JA hooked him. We were comparing the 2 roll outs and how the other players responded, things we didnt see when we were younger or if we did not as often. Playing %'s on rollouts if the other guy will or wont take them. Just more intellectual pool, i suppose. The plan was SVB is a shooter, and it was very unlikely he would pass it back, thats how it worked out. Shane made a grave error in hindsight, and yeah what would have JA done? Dont know, i'll try to find out, he will probably say "I'd just would have made the 1 and ran out" LOL Seriously that will probably be what he says. I'll dig into it a bit.

I'm seeing shots and stragitys that I never saw 20 years ago. It goes without saying im not near his speed, but its interesting that at my speed and his as we get older we see things that we might have not seen before. It was a very interesting conversation and very in-depth.

I'm very lucky to have him as a friend and the basis of our friendship is family stuff NOT pool, sometimes we go for weeks and never talk pool. Runs in streaks.

 

[CreeDo]

On paper, pushing when you have a clean look at the 1 is bad, and you never have an advantage. But based on AtLarge's break stats, the pusher has an edge.

I think that edge is real... but it's a psychological one, not something we can diagram.

Basically, it's using a young champion's ego against him. Shane wants to show Johnny that pushing into a clean look at the 1 is a mistake and Shane will punish it. If Johnny is hoping Shane takes it but screws up (maybe due to distance), Shane wants to prove he can execute. If Johnny is hoping to get it back because he sees a shot Shane overlooked... Shane wants to prove he's clever enough to spot the trap, and turn it around.

Occasionally a clean look just isn't enough to guarantee a good outcome, and Johnny was hoping that Shane wouldn't recognize that this is one of those times.

Plenty of room to debate whether that's true. The way I see it, you have 4 options -

- send the cue ball and 1 to opposite long rails. This is no good because a short bank (as opposed to a full table one) is a sellout for either of these guys. They both bank well. And there's no blocker really except the 8 ball, which is too difficult to count on.

- the diagrammed solution, banking it straight down the table. This is risky. Imagine the cue ball a little to the left or right of the diagrammed position, where the 8 doesn't block it. It's a long thin cut but it's very makeable, the one's only a diamond-ish from the pocket. There's also the risk of a slight undercut (bump the 7) or a slight overcut (park the 1 right in front of the hole).

- bank the 1 towards the right side intentionally. If you send it towards the corner that's a plain sellout. Towards the 4-7 cluster might work out? But unpredictable. I can see it turning into a 1 hanging in front of the side, a 1-4 combo, a 1-4 carom, etc.

- bank the 1 towards the left side. We already know what can go wrong here.

So, tentatively I can see why Johnny felt that even with 9 balls on the table, all of his options were bad and it would be better if someone else where shooting.