question for apa captains

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i played in my 8 ball tri cups this weekend. i was just lowered back down to a 5 recently. i wanna know whats up withevery one throwing 3's against me this weekend.

my captain put me up against 5's when they threw out but when he threw out every one put 3's against me. whats up with that?

are they throwing out sacrificial lambs or do they honestly think 3's have a chance against 5's ?

i played on 2 teams and was fortunate they were in different brackets and did not have to face each other. i played well enough to win all my matches but neither team made it to the finals.

oh well... maybe next time. :smile:
 
2 schools of thought

Well, this depends on where the team is at in the match. The strategy may change a bit with bonus ball type scoring. Think about it. Why wouldn't the other captain take a chance with a lower rated player? Do you think he's going to listen to his hot 7 gripe about playing you when he wants to match up against so-n-so ?? on the same line of thought, his lower rated players are salivating at the chance to get to you! that's 1 way to look at it.

2nd way is if it is bonus ball 8-ball. this way if he throws a weaker player at you and you still win, he still pulls a point with his player if he wins a game.His player wins the match it gets better. Throw in a lil good luck and its all good from the perspective of a captain.

Either way a captain has good incentive to toss a weaker rated player at you.
 
I can't imagine throwing a 3 against a 5 in the playoffs, but then again, I don't know the team structure either.

Perhaps they didn't have everyone there, and the 3 gave them a better balance for the rest of the matches? Perhaps they have a killer 3, who has taken out some higher level players before? Very hard to say without seeing the rosters, and knowing who was actually there, and their ability, especially under pressure.

On my team, I wouldn't be doing that, unless your team was four 5's and a 3 :p

Too bad you didn't make it through this session.
 
Sacrifice a pawn to take a bishop

We did some similar moves in other leagues, if we had a lower player that we had to play, ...which had no chance of winning anyway...we would use them to take out a player that actually posed a threat to us. Having that 3 get beat by a 4 in a close match means the 4 was well used. But a 3 losing to a really good 5, is a waste of a 5...the 3 was gonna get beat anyway, this way you clear the good player from the field, and our 4, 5,6's can storm the field.

It's just plain good strategy. Imagine that you had a six on your team that you planned on to crush the six on their team, they throw a terrible player at your secret weapon...taking him off the field, now their six has the upper hand on your remaining players, and you no longer have a dream player. Their terrible player was gonna lose anyway.

So, yes, sacrificial lamb.
 
lorider said:
i played in my 8 ball tri cups this weekend. i was just lowered back down to a 5 recently. i wanna know whats up withevery one throwing 3's against me this weekend.

my captain put me up against 5's when they threw out but when he threw out every one put 3's against me. whats up with that?

are they throwing out sacrificial lambs ?
Click to expand...

Yes. They may have known that you recently played at a SL6 level and figured their 5's didn't have much chance anyways. Like what's been said, if they had to play a 3 anyway, why not sacrafice them?

I've done it.

Maniac
 
apa sucks , theres 200 3's out there that can beat you cause every one is cheating ! you'll find that out in vegas !
 
I also have done the "sacrifice" move, usually only in the playoffs (hardly ever during a session) but if I'm gonna sacrifice, it will usually be an attempt to get my 2 or 3 against their 7. I haven't seen it done 3 vs 5, during the playoffs, but again...I cant see the rosters.

And Maniac could very well be right, they might have known Lorider is really a 6, playing as a 5, and wanted to get him out of the way. A very likely scenario.
 
beeldog1 said:
apa sucks , theres 200 3's out there that can beat you cause every one is cheating ! you'll find that out in vegas !
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting us know. None of us have EVER heard that before. :rolleyes:

And "everyone" doesn't cheat. I don't, and I don't see it happening where I play. I'm sure that the others here will agree, not "everyone" cheats.

Somehow, those of us in this thread all manage to have a good time. Sorry it doesn't work for you.
 
I like a good 3 in a 2-4 race against a 5....and I bad 3 means I fired a little gun at your big one, leaving me to clean up with the rest of my team.

It's all in the team dynamic...that and they may have found out you just went down and don't want to risk another 5 against a 6 that is playing as a 5.
 
Any comments on the motive for the 3's thrown on you are pure speculation by us. We have no idea what your roster looks like, or how good/bad the 3's were. Personally I might throw off on a 5 depending on your win/loss ratio and my personal knowledge of you. When I was a 5, I was thrown off on frequently by people who knew how I played. Would I throw off on a good 5 if the other team had a better 6 and or 7, maybe not, there are too many factors at play to say for sure.

Anyway, you got your team wins when asked, so feel good about it.
 
There are any number of reasons a certain player gets put up, including:

- Their captain thinks he/she can beat you
- Other players are in another match
- Other players are out of town
- Other players are late
- Other players are too drunk to play
- Other players aren't warmed up yet
- The 3 wants to go home early
- The 3 is really a 4 who got demoted after a few bad losses
- The 3 is a sandbagging 6
- Their team is weirdly balanced with only high or low players
- Their 5's are really 4's who had a few lucky blowouts but really aren't very good
- Their only 5 went up recently, and may get disqualified if he wins and goes up again
- etc.

It's not a conspiracy. There's zero advantage to intentionally putting up a low player and letting them lose to a stronger one. It probably won't affect their rank, and they're already almost as low as you can get.
 
CreeDo said:
There are any number of reasons a certain player gets put up, including:

- Their captain thinks he/she can beat you
- Other players are in another match
- Other players are out of town
- Other players are late
- Other players are too drunk to play
- Other players aren't warmed up yet
- The 3 wants to go home early
- The 3 is really a 4 who got demoted after a few bad losses
- The 3 is a sandbagging 6
- Their team is weirdly balanced with only high or low players
- Their 5's are really 4's who had a few lucky blowouts but really aren't very good
- Their only 5 went up recently, and may get disqualified if he wins and goes up again
- etc.

It's not a conspiracy. There's zero advantage to intentionally putting up a low player and letting them lose to a stronger one. It probably won't affect their rank, and they're already almost as low as you can get.
Click to expand...

Hey creedo, I agree with almost everything you said, but I DO think that there's an advantage to having a 3 get beat by a STRONG player, just to remove the threat...after all, how much can the strong player actually hurt us against a 3 that was gonna get killed anyway?
 
Sounds to me like beeldog had a hard time in Las Vegas.
If you know you have a border-line 3-4 you have to like that race, especially if your 3 is on a hot streak. 3's are mostly jungle players, and if you're a pattern run out player they can really wreck your chi, know what I mean? or if you all have a 6 or 7 and they don't like the match up (because they know you?) the the match is the sacrifice. Were you guys using the "new" scoring or the common APA scoring? If I have a pretty good 3 the percentages say that even against the best 5's they'll win one game, I just have to hope you make a mistake in at least one other
 
8onthebreak said:
Hey creedo, I agree with almost everything you said, but I DO think that there's an advantage to having a 3 get beat by a STRONG player, just to remove the threat...after all, how much can the strong player actually hurt us against a 3 that was gonna get killed anyway?
Click to expand...

This is a very common misunderstanding in APA. No offense. It's a subject that comes up a lot when people debate putting up their worst player against some other team's "Super Seven™". This is always a poor choice, though lots of captains have this mindset.

You (I don't mean you personally, just a general 'you') are not hurting the other team at ALL by sacrificing your 3 to "take out" their 7. Their seven helps the team just as much by demolishing a scrub, as he does by winning a difficult close race with another seven. Match points are match points.

Think of it this way: Why is taking out their 7 important? Because he's likely to win. So what did you accomplish by playing a 3? You turned "likely to win" into "guaranteed to win".

Why is 'sacrificing' your 3 supposedly helpful? Because they're likely to lose anyway. So what did you accomplish? You turned "likely to lose" into "guaranteed to lose".

A team cannot afford to throw away points for a 'possible' advantage somewhere in the future. Points are money in the bank, a bird in hand, and you need to make the opponent fight for every one. You can't throw them away voluntarily thinking you'll get 'em back later.

The goal is to find a way to make sure every player can contribute match points (even if they lose). A 3 is just gonna get skunked vs. a 7, they can't even make it a 'helpful' loss. So your best bet is to find someone who is near the same skill level or a little better.
 
beeldog1 said:
apa sucks , theres 200 3's out there that can beat you cause every one is cheating ! you'll find that out in vegas !
Click to expand...

You are so right.. It seems that the skill levels vary greatly from state to state. My team made it Vegas a few years ago and my captain trying to o the honorable thing and match skill level against skill level. The problem is the teams 3 shoots like a six or better.

I swear to the Almighty this guy broke and ran the first two racks it was amazing. The score was 22-0 before our 6 got his first shot.Needless to say he lost 17-3 match points. We ended up winning that match but we learned a valuable lesson after that.
 
thanks for all the replies fellas. a lot of you made some very valid points, i love the chit load of reasons creedo gave, laughed like heck.

here is the roster of my 2 teams i played with .

my sun night team, which i am captain of btw. note; i gave matchup and coaching duties to my co-captain who is a 7 because he has been at this a lot longer than me. there were people we faced that he did not know and he would always ask me if i knew them, in most cases i did because i play in 3 divisions and he only plays sun nights.

we like to throw out 1st , win or lose the flip, we feel you take control of how matchups go when you throw 1st. take fri night. we throw a 3 and they counter with a 3, we win. they throw a 4 who my captain did not know and asked me if i knew. i said yea , he is a weak 4, actualy was suprised he was raised to a 4. he was a 3 recently. he said do you think our 4 can take him , i said yea, no problem. our 4 won 3-0

my tue night team is as follows

1-7 who is our lo and is ineligible for playoffs
1-6
2-5s
1-4
3-3s

as for matching up...who the hell knows why she matches up how she does ? she is a 3.

1-7
1-5
2-4s
3-3s
 
scenario

I'm not saying you put a 3 up agaist a 7 all the time. Most times you post an even matchup, but sometimes it does happen.

Here'sa scenario for you:
3-7 matchup

3 wins lag
3 takes game 1

Now all he needs is 1 game and or a little luck ;)

As a captain: I'm likin this scenario :thumbup:
 
i would like to comment on your points about various skill levels of 3's.

the ones i faced were in 2 groups. 2 were the regular shoot a good shot, slop 1 in , miss and leave you bad. the other 2 were suprisingly good shooters, 1 in fact suprised me. i broke dry, he ran 6 balls, 2 were slop shots though. i thought damn i am in trouble here. i just made sure i kept the cueball where if i missed he could only make an efren type shot on his last ball, or slop it in .:grin-square:. he never got his last ball.

all of them had 2 faults in common. no idea of pattern play and no cueball control. i just played smart.

speaking of playing smart... since joining my team our 7 has helped me a lot in this area.

take my 1st match this morning. i faced a 5 who i found out real quick was a ball pocketing machine. he jumped out 2-0 real quick. i thought i cant outshoot him so i am going to have to outhink him.

3rd rack he made his last ball but could not get on the 8. i took bih and made a few then ducked and hid. i left him wher he could just see the 8 peeking out past 1 of my balls . he had a thin cut in the corner but i knew if ne hit the 8 he would scratch in the other corner. i called the lo to observe. sure enough he scratched.

if i had been in his shoes i would have kicked at it or just gave ball in hand before i scratched. unlikely for me to run out because i had a real cluster fvck along 1 rail. next rack went exactly the same way. i left him hard on the 8. he called the corner pocket again. after thinking about it he called a bank off the short rail back up table to the corner pocket. sure enough he scratched again. now we are even 2-2 without me ever getting on the 8. i went on to win 4-2.
 
Dunnn51 said:
I'm not saying you put a 3 up agaist a 7 all the time. Most times you post an even matchup, but sometimes it does happen.

Here'sa scenario for you:
3-7 matchup

3 wins lag
3 takes game 1

Now all he needs is 1 game and or a little luck ;)

As a captain: I'm likin this scenario :thumbup:
Click to expand...

it does put a lot of pressure on you in that scenario when you gotta win 5 or 6 whatever and he needs only one. anything could happen.
 
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