Could Corey Deuel have been one of the all-time greats?

I know Corey or any other human is not naturally talented for "pool" because humans are blank slates and develop into beings with abilities and skills based on their environment and opportunities.

Sort of disagree with this...while I worked on my game a lot with gambling small ball and just shooting/practicing when I was 18-19, I think part of it is hereditary. My dad was good at games and I think I got that from him. Some people I think are just gifted and don't have to necessarily put in the hours...it comes naturally to them. Just an opinion and its not a every case scenario...just think some have it without having to work as hard as others.
 
Sort of disagree with this...while I worked on my game a lot with gambling small ball and just shooting/practicing when I was 18-19, I think part of it is hereditary. My dad was good at games and I think I got that from him. Some people I think are just gifted and don't have to necessarily put in the hours...it comes naturally to them. Just an opinion and its not a every case scenario...just think some have it without having to work as hard as others.

I agree. Most top players have some natural talent. That's not to say Corey didn't also put in the work.

I'm certain there are players that practice 8+ hours a day that will never be on the same level as Dennis or Shane. No amount of practice can overcome a lack of natural talent.
 
If he dedicated himself 100% to pool and didn't get disinterested? His natural talent and mind is just incredible. I know there's a lot of players you could say would be world-beaters if they dedicated themselves 100& and practiced as much as Shane but to me there's something special about Corey.

Not that I think Corey is in any way washed up, but the all time greats have all dealt with issues and still managed to be on top. Greenleaf comes to mind.
 
Sort of disagree with this...while I worked on my game a lot with gambling small ball and just shooting/practicing when I was 18-19, I think part of it is hereditary. My dad was good at games and I think I got that from him. Some people I think are just gifted and don't have to necessarily put in the hours...it comes naturally to them. Just an opinion and its not a every case scenario...just think some have it without having to work as hard as others.

Spimp, I agree that we are not created equil. Some have a faster learning curve than others. But Make no mistake the "It" factor is a falicy. "It" was created by the comentator on a sports network to justify in his own mind, why he is not Michael Jordan, but instead makes a modest living reporting on michael. Maybe by the league player who thinks it is "Fair" that we should spot him 10-2 on league night. "It" is mostly an excuse by the weak. It places blame elsewhere. It can't be that they had a bad work ethic or just plan didn't want to practice.
 
corey is a good guy and great player. we have been buds for 10 years and if he isnt considered one of all time greats then i have no idea what it takes to be one of all time greats.

also huckster i want to try that all 15 in one hole with 5-1.
sounds brutal but ill try it on a diamond,4.5 pockets and good cloth.

I did this a few years ago at the derby for cheap let's just say I didn't seek you out. (your patterns are too good)
 
Spimp, I agree that we are not created equil. Some have a faster learning curve than others. But Make no mistake the "It" factor is a falicy. "It" was created by the comentator on a sports network to justify in his own mind, why he is not Michael Jordan, but instead makes a modest living reporting on michael. Maybe by the league player who thinks it is "Fair" that we should spot him 10-2 on league night. "It" is mostly an excuse by the weak. It places blame elsewhere. It can't be that they had a bad work ethic or just plan didn't want to practice.

I think the concept of the "IT" factor would be tough to prove/disprove for both of our viewpoints. It would be hard to get a big enough sample size, declare the appropriate variables to consider, and then exactly 1 hypothesis that we are trying to prove. I think there would always be disagreements on specific aspects of it to which as a whole we would never agree on.

For me personally the first time I picked up a cue I was approached by a guy who asked me if I wanted to play. He beat the snot out of me, but I held my own. He said I had a good eye and seemed to enjoy the game and then asked if I wanted to play in league to which I said sure. I was hungry to get better so of course I practiced, gambled etc....my viewpoint is when I first picked up the cue with no practice, training, I was able to visually make some shots. Sure I was horrible, but there was that natural talent that was there to begin with. That is what I am saying...some have more than others. I consider that first time I picked up a cue and was able to make some balls the "IT factor"...at least for me.
 
Sort of disagree with this...while I worked on my game a lot with gambling small ball and just shooting/practicing when I was 18-19, I think part of it is hereditary. My dad was good at games and I think I got that from him. Some people I think are just gifted and don't have to necessarily put in the hours...it comes naturally to them. Just an opinion and its not a every case scenario...just think some have it without having to work as hard as others.

Sure some people tend to gravitate towards things they are interested in and show aptitude for.

That some people have better hand/eye coordination than others is a fact. But it's also been shown that skill can be acquired and that whatever natural advantage a person might start out with that head start is quickly erased by hard work.

In other words if you and I start out learning pool at the same and you can run a rack in two weeks and it takes me a month then you probably have better hand/eye coordination but after one month we are almost equals and after a year we are equals and after several years I could be much better.

In education it is often assumed that those who are quicker to grasp the information and solve the problems are the smarted ones. This comes from the one-size-fits all nature of education where all students are presented the same information and expected to process it at the same rate.

However it is being observed that when students are allowed to take the information at their own pace and only advance to more information when they have completed the tasks that some students do race ahead on the "easy" information and hit a wall on the harder lessons while other kids are much slower to grasp the easy lessons but then are later able to work through the harder lessons and eventually surpass the kids who raced ahead.

In traditional settings those who race ahead are considered to be gifted and talented and are rewarded with more challenging material while those who go at a slower pace are deemed to be NOT gifted or talented. That notion is now being thoroughly debunked.

Regarding heredity. You will often find examples of athletes whose parent were not athletic and scholars whose parents were athletes. There is no doubt that some traits in people are hereditary. Children lost at birth have been shown to have grown up with zero influence from their natural birth parents and yet have developed remarkable similarities in character and habits and skills to their natural parents.

All I am saying with all this is that skill comes more from hard work than it does from "talent". When someone says I am a talented case maker I point to our wall of experiments and look at my book of failures and say that developing that level has been very expensive. For me the talent in case making from my perspective is having the desire to solve problems and not stop until a solution is found. Anyone who does this can become a great leather worker. (which I am not by the way).

Most people stop. They put in a certain amount of time, get pretty good and stop for whatever reason. They might think that they are wasting their time, haven't advanced fast enough or aren't being rewarded enough or whatever but they stop.

So they look at people who are better and assume that those people are simply more talented. I tend to think that if one looks deeper one would find that those people just didn't stop trying to get better. Anyway that's my take on it from a no-talent pool hack who really is a never-was on the pool table.
 
There are a few guys that are just born with a talent to play pool some played for a year or two and were scary good guys like Earl, Marco marquez, Corey, John schmidt, Antonio Lining, Ray Schultz, Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris, Alex pagulayan, Allen Hopkins, Shannon Daulton, Tony Watson are all what I would call natural prodigies some took longer to find out but playing for a year or two and decimating regoinal players shows they have/had a flair for the game
 
All I am saying with all this is that skill comes more from hard work than it does from "talent".

John, good post and I agree...specifically here. I think there is that talent factor, but no doubt a lot more comes from hard work. I believe I had some of that IT factor to begin with, but working on hard was much more valuable then just the IT factor alone.

In APA I started as a 2, and 4 sessions later I moved up to a 6. I worked my butt off and I definitely would agree with you putting in the work helped a lot more than just the talent factor alone.
 
Natural talent doesn't exist?
Someone tell that crap to Mozart.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and just state it for the record.

Anyone who doesn't think Corey had a natural talent for the game of pool, NEVER EVER saw him learning to playing pool as a young teenager.

And i'm not talking about seeing him at this tournament or that tournament as a kid, and forming a snapshot of who he was.
I'm talking about seeing him, day in, and day out, playing the game, when he first started out.

It's that simple.

If you didn't see it, you can't possibly fathom what natural talent actually means when applied to him, when compared to the regular BANGERS, who take up the game.

That whole natural talent vs hard work, has been has been debated enough on these forums.
No one is debating whether the end result of greatness can be achieved through hard work, because it absolutely can be.

And yes, before someone decides to nit pick, talent only gets you so far.

As such, all hard work aside, Corey is one of the greatest natural talents in the game. PERIOD.
 
Natural talent doesn't exist?
Someone tell that crap to Mozart.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and just state it for the record.

Anyone who doesn't think Corey had a natural talent for the game of pool, NEVER EVER saw him learning to playing pool as a young teenager.

And i'm not talking about seeing him at this tournament or that tournament as a kid, and forming a snapshot of who he was.
I'm talking about seeing him, day in, and day out, playing the game, when he first started out.

It's that simple.

If you didn't see it, you can't possibly fathom what natural talent actually means when applied to him, when compared to the regular BANGERS, who take up the game.

That whole natural talent vs hard work, has been has been debated enough on these forums.
No one is debating whether the end result of greatness can be achieved through hard work, because it absolutely can be.

And yes, before someone decides to nit pick, talent only gets you so far.

As such, all hard work aside, Corey is one of the greatest natural talents in the game. PERIOD.

Mozart was TRAINED relentlessly from the time he was four years old by bis father who was an accomplished composer and music teacher. Mozart's first world class symphony was written when he 21 which was 17 years after his training began.
 
Natural talent doesn't exist?
Someone tell that crap to Mozart.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and just state it for the record.

Anyone who doesn't think Corey had a natural talent for the game of pool, NEVER EVER saw him learning to playing pool as a young teenager.

And i'm not talking about seeing him at this tournament or that tournament as a kid, and forming a snapshot of who he was.
I'm talking about seeing him, day in, and day out, playing the game, when he first started out.

It's that simple.

If you didn't see it, you can't possibly fathom what natural talent actually means when applied to him, when compared to the regular BANGERS, who take up the game.

That whole natural talent vs hard work, has been has been debated enough on these forums.
No one is debating whether the end result of greatness can be achieved through hard work, because it absolutely can be.

And yes, before someone decides to nit pick, talent only gets you so far.

As such, all hard work aside, Corey is one of the greatest natural talents in the game. PERIOD.

Yes, I agree with John. I wasn't around to see Cory grow up but I was around to see Jesse Bowman. I remember him dragging a milk crate around the table getting the 7 ball from mel carter for $100.00 per set. He was 8 years old at the time. He had a debit card and the ATM was 200 yards out the back door of Millertime billiards at the hardware store. Did I mention he was 8???? I was in that pool room every day and he was also there pounding ball after ball. He was relentless in his efforts to learn. Yes he had hand eye jeans. His dad was a solid A player. He was groom to be a Giant killer from Before he was tall enough to see the balls. That's why when people talk about his natural talent, I just smile and walk away. I this a big part of the phrase "Natural Talent or the "it" factor is way over used. It is an excuse for the weak to stay weak. To deflect blame. Willing yourself to be a world beater and then spending the hours needed to do so, has less to do with any Mystic power or God given Talent and more to do with drive and motivation IMHO.
 
Yes, I agree with John. I wasn't around to see Cory grow up but I was around to see Jesse Bowman. I remember him dragging a milk crate around the table getting the 7 ball from mel carter for $100.00 per set. He was 8 years old at the time. He had a debit card and the ATM was 200 yards out the back door of Millertime billiards at the hardware store. Did I mention he was 8???? I was in that pool room every day and he was also there pounding ball after ball. He was relentless in his efforts to learn. Yes he had hand eye jeans. His dad was a solid A player. He was groom to be a Giant killer from Before he was tall enough to see the balls. That's why when people talk about his natural talent, I just smile and walk away. I this a big part of the phrase "Natural Talent or the "it" factor is way over used. It is an excuse for the weak to stay weak. To deflect blame. Willing yourself to be a world beater and then spending the hours needed to do so, has less to do with any Mystic power or God given Talent and more to do with drive and motivation IMHO.

Apparently, all that hard work didn't teach the guy about heart.
Who just ran away from the SVB match with their tail between their legs?
 
Mozart was TRAINED relentlessly from the time he was four years old by bis father who was an accomplished composer and music teacher. Mozart's first world class symphony was written when he 21 which was 17 years after his training began.

I guess the word prodigy means nothing?

He composed from the age of FIVE.

"Biographer Maynard Solomon notes that, while Leopold was a devoted teacher to his children, there is evidence that Mozart was keen to progress beyond what he was taught."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart

No one is saying he didn't get training.
But let's not dismiss the obvious.

On a brighter note, at least you didn't mention Corey in your response.
 
I guess the word prodigy means nothing?

He composed from the age of FIVE.

"Biographer Maynard Solomon notes that, while Leopold was a devoted teacher to his children, there is evidence that Mozart was keen to progress beyond what he was taught."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart

No one is saying he didn't get training.
But let's not dismiss the obvious.

On a brighter note, at least you didn't mention Corey in your response.

:-) That is evidence of desire. Which a lot of people think is the variable that matters.

Many Mozart scholars think that his father 'helped' quite a bit with those early compositions - to the point that some say he really wrote them. Kind of like the little girl who was hailed as an amazing artist who was revealed to have been heavily coached by her father to the point of almost holding the brush.

Actually we are debating the obvious assumption. Which is that anyone who is good is good because of natural talent. Over time science and research indicate that the romantic notions of "god given talent" and "having been born to do x" are not true. World class is attainable by most who are physically and mentally capable and those that rise to championship level are generally shown to have worked harder and deeper than their contemporaries.
 
Forget nature vs nuture...

If Corey stayed in Philly instead of moving to Ohio, he would have been the next Efren! :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:
 
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