grip pressure when using english / side spin

[ENGLISH!]

I get sort of what you're thinking. The stick is designed to give a little and be 'whippy'
and flex out of the way when it hits the ball.
So maybe your grip allows the rest of the cue to give a little too, and thereby reduce deflection.

Would be interested to hear Dr. Dave's input on this.

My impression is, the whippiness only matters up to a certain point less than halfway down the
length of the shaft. Like an OB2 is only hollow up to the first 5 inches or so. And deflection isn't
affected by what sort of butt you put on the shaft, assuming the weight is consistent.

So if the bottom half and butt don't matter, probably the grip hand doesn't either.

Again that's all other things being equal.
If gripping or relaxing changes the speed of your swing or the location of the tip on the cue ball,
then yeah... different results.

Mr. Creedo,

Have you watched Mr. Muecci's shaft testing video? Did you hear after the Adam Balabushka first hit with the stock shaft that he commented that it must be a very well made butt? That butt tested the best both with the stock shaft & the Muecci shaft.

Food for thought. Just like Mr. Naji's comment about back hand placement affecting squirt.

I've metioned the Bushka Butt thing several times but it did not even garner a comment.

Regards,

 

[3andstop]

That's the point, all things are not equal, and can't be if the grip is different, since the grip is an integral part of the shot.

I'm taking for granted, the OP meant all else is the same. What other logical assumption can there be?

That's what I'm saying, in other words if the tip were changed, or the shaft were changed on the exact same shot would the CB react differently? Yes,the same as changing grips would affect the CB.

In essence, we are saying the same thing differently, except some of us are taking the words "the same" to a literal end, regardless that the shot can't be the same, (since technically that was the question) while others are naturally assuming the question to mean "all else is the same".

 

[lfigueroa]

Physics.

While I'm tempted to stop there, the best example I can think of is Bob Meucci's Myth Destroyer (the ball striking machine he uses to compare deflection among shafts). The machine is designed to replicate the exact same strike on the cue ball every time. Do you think it matters at all how tightly he clamps down the back arm of that machine on the butt of the cue?

My recollection of the Jacksonville Experiments is that it did matter and the guys conducting the experiments had to bubble wrap the grip part of the robot with something like bubble wrap to simulate the give of the flesh of a human hand. I think they used Iron Willie and not the MD.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JolietJames]

I still can't believe the back hand can have enough of an effect to alter the path enough to notice. Possibly the bridge hand I suppose but I still doubt its enough to trouble to require attention. I'm not an expert in the field but if it made that much difference I'm sure I would have obsessed about it in the past lol.

 

[3andstop]

I still can't believe the back hand can have enough of an effect to alter the path enough to notice. Possibly the bridge hand I suppose but I still doubt its enough to trouble to require attention. I'm not an expert in the field but if it made that much difference I'm sure I would have obsessed about it in the past lol.

To quote one of my favorite people, Danny D. "If you knew what you didn't know ... you wouldn't not know it."

 

[CreeDo]

English: Definitely interested in watching the video, just can't find it, got a link?

3andstop: I follow you, and you're right, there's no way to do the 'all other things being equal' shot, so yeah, the grip will probably affect the outcome. Now it's just a question of, will it be a desirable effect or not.

 

[kwoshunli]

English: Definitely interested in watching the video, just can't find it, got a link?

3andstop: I follow you, and you're right, there's no way to do the 'all other things being equal' shot, so yeah, the grip will probably affect the outcome. Now it's just a question of, will it be a desirable effect or not.

obviously it is not desireable.

 

[ScottK]

If you don't mind me asking. How much physics instrution have you recieved?

What do you think would happen with that machine if the cue was connected to the swing arm by a hinging mechanism similiar to the wrist & on one 'shot' it was left loose & the next it was ratcheted down stiff. Would the hit be the same?

Regards,

No. But that would be another variable now, wouldn't it?

 

[ENGLISH!]

To quote one of my favorite people, Danny D. "If you knew what you didn't know ... you wouldn't not know it."

Thank fof the laugh. I love that.

I sometime's say & remind myself, 'There's only one thing that I know...and that is that I know nothing.'

Thanks again.

 

[ScottK]

My recollection of the Jacksonville Experiments is that it did matter and the guys conducting the experiments had to bubble wrap the grip part of the robot with something like bubble wrap to simulate the give of the flesh of a human hand. I think they used Iron Willie and not the MD.

Lou Figueroa

I'd say the bubble wrap introduces another variable. If you simulate the flesh of a human hand you do so in order to simulate a human stroke which is variable by it's very nature.

The bottom line is ALL other things being EXACTLY equal, the cue ball only knows where it was struck and the forces involved in said strike. Therefore deflection must be the same.

The issue here is that short of using a robot, each strike will not be exactly the same, so deflection will change and while grip pressure is a partial cause of the change in the stroke, it is not, in and of itself, responsible for the change in deflection.

 

[ENGLISH!]

English: Definitely interested in watching the video, just can't find it, got a link?

3andstop: I follow you, and you're right, there's no way to do the 'all other things being equal' shot, so yeah, the grip will probably affect the outcome. Now it's just a question of, will it be a desirable effect or not.

Mr. Creedo,

No, I don't have a link & I can't find it either. There was a link on AZB but I stumbled onto it in June 2012 when I was reseaching LD shafts. I went to Muecci.com but I don't see it.

It was not that much. He just made the comment when he was surprised how well the Adam cue did with the stock shaft. Then if you study his chart of the tests it had the least improvement with the Muecci dot shaft but that was because it was the best (least squirt) with both.

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

No. But that would be another variable now, wouldn't it?

My point was that you were bringing up a machine that is different than a real human arm & used for a different purpose than testing grip pressure to make your point.

Let me rephrase. If the holding mechanism (without my wrsit like connection device) were attached one time dry & one time with a high viscosity oil applied to it, would the result be the same? The point is 'slippage' & tranfer of energy from the same all else equal premise, including the initial energy from the arm swing.

It is a very simple & basic concept. If one thing is changed there will be a different outcome, unless some other thing is also changes to off set the first thing that was changed.

The 'scientists' on AZB seem to simply overlook that when it is convenient.

 

[CJ Wiley]

your hand matches what the cue ball is doing

The key is calibration - As soon as what you feel in your hand matches what the cue ball is doing {in regards to spin and deflection} it's an effective way to play pool. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Can you feel the horizontal trajectory of the cue ball? :groucho:

 

[kwoshunli]

CJ,

what's with the trajectory?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Masse' shots have a wider trajectory than a regularly spinning shot

CJ,

what's with the trajectory?

I think of spin and deflection as "trajectory," and instead of going up and down they move from side to side. Masse' shots have a wider trajectory than a regularly spinning shot that curves slightly. Deflection has a different "shot shape" than spin, and is easier to use to create zones.

 

[lfigueroa]

I'd say the bubble wrap introduces another variable. If you simulate the flesh of a human hand you do so in order to simulate a human stroke which is variable by it's very nature.

The bottom line is ALL other things being EXACTLY equal, the cue ball only knows where it was struck and the forces involved in said strike. Therefore deflection must be the same.

The issue here is that short of using a robot, each strike will not be exactly the same, so deflection will change and while grip pressure is a partial cause of the change in the stroke, it is not, in and of itself, responsible for the change in deflection.

Everybody has an opinion, but I say the guys involved, Bob Jewett, Jim Buss, and one other capable guy who's name escapes me at the moment knew what they were doing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CreeDo]

I believe Dr. Dave found out that LD shafts only reduced deflection about 30% vs. a typical shaft. So, to answer the original question: I don't think the grip will have a significant difference.

We're probably talking like 2-3% not 20-30%.

So, I think a player would do well to just use the grip that works for him and not stress out about deflection.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Everybody has an opinion, but I say the guys involved, Bob Jewett, Jim Buss, and one other capable guy who's name escapes me at the moment knew what they were doing.

Lou Figueroa

The experimenters were those plus Mike Shamos, Hans de Jager (former European artistic billiards champion and record holder), and for a few days Walt Harris.

The original grip and bridge of "Iron Willie" were not very good approximations to human mechanics. Because the drive arm was very tightly connected to the butt, the cue behaved as if it weighed several pounds rather than 18-20 ounces. The main problem that causes is that the cue stick does not slow down the right amount when it hits the ball and for spin shots that means that you might have secondary hits or scraping with extreme offsets. Predator has modified Iron Willie since the "Jacksonville Experiment" to be more like people.

 

[ScottK]

Everybody has an opinion, but I say the guys involved, Bob Jewett, Jim Buss, and one other capable guy who's name escapes me at the moment knew what they were doing.

Lou Figueroa

I'm glad we agree that Bob knows what he is doing because he has already said what I've tried to explain in every post I've made in this thread:

If you hit the two shots with the cue stick going in the same direction with the same offset and the same speed and elevation, then the two shots will go the same. Of course there are few players who will hit the ball the same if their grip tightens up.

I'll try this again though. The OP wants clarification on what Bob said.

Bob, are you saying that there is no difference in the grip pressure if you hit the same spot, the same stroke the same speed?

Think of it this way: The cue ball only knows one thing... how it was struck by the tip. The tip is made to strike the cue ball in a specific spot by the stroke. So, the stroke is a number of variables which result in the tip striking the cue ball, but if all the variables in the stroke result in the exact same movement and impact of the tip when it strikes the cue ball, deflection MUST be the same. The only thing that matters is the sum of the parts of the variables in the stroke. Nothing else.

I'll try to think of a better way to explain it. Or perhaps Mr. Jewitt can elaborate on his post and clear the issue up.

 

[kwoshunli]

Bob Jewett, Can you please elaborate for us?