If this was a poll,I'd vote with you.
No 2 way shots here!
- Thread starter JesseBfan
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If this was a poll,I'd vote with you.
I don't think chess is much of a spectator sport....(think money,sponsorships, etc.)
lol, Lemme see if I follow your logic.
Pool is not like pool, it's like [some TOTALLY DIFFERENT activity].
In this utterly unrelated activity, luck rarely affects the outcome.
Therefore, luck rarely affects the outcome in pool.
Anyone else see a problem here?
How often does an archer bounce an arrow off a tree? Never.
How often does a chess pieces go somewhere random? Never.
How often does a ball slop in a pool game? All the f*cking time!
Yes, even with pro players! Pockets take up ten percent of the rail area.
I don't like "limited ammo" rules, too gimmicky, too wishy-washy.
And it's one more thing to keep track of. And who wants to sit there and dissect whether a
two-way is a "type 1" 2-way or a "type 2" 2-way? Who wants to get into arguments about
whether the player intended a 2-way leave or it was just the logical place to play shape?
The people making the rules need to commit. They either decide something is bad and ruins
the game, or decide it's good and is worth keeping. None of these "It's ok in moderation"
half-measures. That doesn't make both groups happy, it makes neither group happy.
For example, it's rare someone wins a rack by making 3 great jump shots. Usually you just
need one good jump shot to turn a great safe into "too bad, buddy. Rack 'em".
Trust me, that won't satisfy the jump cue haters.
As far as solving the 'problems' of two ways in 10 ball, I don't see them as problems. You still need to make a called shot. Having another ball nearby available for carom doesn't mean you now should relax the call shot rule. It just means the shooter has options for his called shot.
I don't like pass back after ANY miss. That's overkill. Sometimes when playing shape, you're naturally going to hide the cue ball from the pocket your ball just went into. You shouldn't have to sweat "if I try to make this and play logical shape, and miss, I'm gonna have to kick." Just missing and giving up the table is enough penalty. Especially if we allow jump cues... almost nothing is totally safe.
You could remove 2 way shots by giving your opponent the option to accept the shot or give it back after *any* miss.
lol, Lemme see if I follow your logic.
Pool is not like pool, it's like [some TOTALLY DIFFERENT activity].
In this utterly unrelated activity, luck rarely affects the outcome.
Therefore, luck rarely affects the outcome in pool.
Anyone else see a problem here?
How often does an archer bounce an arrow off a tree? Never.
How often does a chess pieces go somewhere random? Never.
How often does a ball slop in a pool game? All the f*cking time!
Yes, even with pro players! Pockets take up ten percent of the rail area.
I don't like "limited ammo" rules, too gimmicky, too wishy-washy.
And it's one more thing to keep track of. And who wants to sit there and dissect whether a
two-way is a "type 1" 2-way or a "type 2" 2-way? Who wants to get into arguments about
whether the player intended a 2-way leave or it was just the logical place to play shape?
The people making the rules need to commit. They either decide something is bad and ruins
the game, or decide it's good and is worth keeping. None of these "It's ok in moderation"
half-measures. That doesn't make both groups happy, it makes neither group happy.
For example, it's rare someone wins a rack by making 3 great jump shots. Usually you just
need one good jump shot to turn a great safe into "too bad, buddy. Rack 'em".
Trust me, that won't satisfy the jump cue haters.
As far as solving the 'problems' of two ways in 10 ball, I don't see them as problems. You still need to make a called shot. Having another ball nearby available for carom doesn't mean you now should relax the call shot rule. It just means the shooter has options for his called shot.
I don't like pass back after ANY miss. That's overkill. Sometimes when playing shape, you're naturally going to hide the cue ball from the pocket your ball just went into. You shouldn't have to sweat "if I try to make this and play logical shape, and miss, I'm gonna have to kick." Just missing and giving up the table is enough penalty. Especially if we allow jump cues... almost nothing is totally safe.
I agree...rules being "kinda pregnant" solves nothing.
But to address the blue highlight....if I play same pocket shape and miss and my opponent gives it back I would look at it as a 2nd chance to finish what I started. But after I make a few of these my opponent is now going to start second guessing his original choices and may take the kick himself....oh the joys of two shot shoot out!!! Now we playing pool!! Game on!
Ken
The removal of the 2-way shot is, in my opinion a bad move. I guess I'm not a big fan of call-shot rotation games in general. I love straight pool which is as we all know a call-shot game, but i can't stand 10-ball. It's just boring. The charm of 9-ball is the fact that you can sometimes try creative stuff. Some of the most electrifying shots I have ever seen on a pool table happened during 9-ball games where people tried things that were seemingly impossible and "got lucky". In the strict 10-ball rules these shots will never be attempted. The 10 ball rules which remove 2-way shots makes it even more boring.
By making you call every ball and even call safe you make it a shotmaking contest. Pure and simple. No strategy or creativity, just pure, robotic shotmaking. . And I guess that is the direction in which 10-ball is heading. Larger tables, smaller pockets, call everything etc. That will probably be a truer test of skill in a short race format, but detracts from the beauty of the game. I don't believe this is the way to go to make pool interesting for the regular viewer. If you have to make it call-shot I at least think you should not make it call-safe. Even snooker has slop and no (well you have to cal the colour but..)call shots. The future, I think, is the TAR model. Long races, where highlights possibly can be shown on TV. It would be great if there were some spectacular, unlikely shots to show, wouldn't it?
By making you call every ball and even call safe you make it a shotmaking contest. Pure and simple. No strategy or creativity, just pure, robotic shotmaking. . And I guess that is the direction in which 10-ball is heading. Larger tables, smaller pockets, call everything etc. That will probably be a truer test of skill in a short race format, but detracts from the beauty of the game. I don't believe this is the way to go to make pool interesting for the regular viewer. If you have to make it call-shot I at least think you should not make it call-safe. Even snooker has slop and no (well you have to cal the colour but..)call shots. The future, I think, is the TAR model. Long races, where highlights possibly can be shown on TV. It would be great if there were some spectacular, unlikely shots to show, wouldn't it?
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If you look at the history of 9-ball (and partially 10-ball) you can see that there almost seems to be a campaign to remove all thinking or strategy from the game.
The first thing to go was the push on every shot option, which was an extremely strategic move, which allowed good shooters (and thinkers) a great advantage. Then came the jump cues which greatly diminished the value of safeties.
Shot clocks were introduced to speed the game up and in the mean time there were several attempts to remove the safety option all together. There's footage from such an event on youtube. Its played on some god-awful yellow felt, you can probably find it.
Then came the 10-ball (i know it had existed as a gambling game) and the call shot, call safe rules. If these developments continue, the next champion of the game won't be an Efren Reyes, but some 12-year old robot that just hammers in everything at 200 mph. Is that the sort of champion we want for our sport?
The first thing to go was the push on every shot option, which was an extremely strategic move, which allowed good shooters (and thinkers) a great advantage. Then came the jump cues which greatly diminished the value of safeties.
Shot clocks were introduced to speed the game up and in the mean time there were several attempts to remove the safety option all together. There's footage from such an event on youtube. Its played on some god-awful yellow felt, you can probably find it.
Then came the 10-ball (i know it had existed as a gambling game) and the call shot, call safe rules. If these developments continue, the next champion of the game won't be an Efren Reyes, but some 12-year old robot that just hammers in everything at 200 mph. Is that the sort of champion we want for our sport?
Not sure if you're following along here but I personally don't want to remove 2ways.
Why thank you kindly Mr. Agnir!
I agree - I love the creativity of two-way shots and hate rules that remove them.
For every big 9-ball tournament, you can look at the bracket before any matches are played and pick out the favorites to win. The players who go deep in pro tournaments are not a surprise. The actual effect of luck is swamped by skill. So I don't see how luck is harming the game.
For every big 9-ball tournament, you can look at the bracket before any matches are played and pick out the favorites to win. The players who go deep in pro tournaments are not a surprise. The actual effect of luck is swamped by skill. So I don't see how luck is harming the game.
the "Two Way Shots" are the most skillful shot in pool in my opinion.
Well said...and btw, it's impossible to take all the luck out of pool, no matter what rules you apply.....and the "Two Way Shots" are the most skillful shot in pool in my opinion.
Well said...and btw, it's impossible to take all the luck out of pool, no matter what rules you apply.....and the "Two Way Shots" are the most skillful shot in pool in my opinion.
Thanks for chiming in Mr. Wiley. I'm of the same opinion it just seems as though some events(mainly 10-Ball ones) are trying to eliminate them.
I agree on the give and take. Give up the 2 way shot to take away lucky rolls. It's not just slop shots, but a player missing a ball and getting a very lucky leave. I once played Archer with these rules,and of course he's the better player,but I liked the fact that it was taking most of the rolls out of the match. I wanted to gamble a few times with these rules, but the other players I play thought it took away their chances. It's a pride thing with me, I don't like to suck out on my opponent. Sucking out should be saved for poker IMO.
