This might be the silliest question ever but...

ENGLISH! said:
Did Mr. Lee confuse you?
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I don't think so... If my answer is not correct just tell me where it is wrong. Even shooting down the rail the pocket is on the left, move the both balls off the rail 3 inches and I tell you shoot it with inside english, now which pocket is inside english? Both...
 
How can anyone who teaches pool think that there is inside and outside English on a shot with no angle? I'm stumped.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think the terms "inside" and "outside" are useful. In a mirror-image shot reversal, for example shooting a spot shot to the left or the right corner pocket, saying to use right draw to kill the cue ball off the side rail works for only one of the two shots. If you say to use outside draw and go to the side cushion, the idea is clear.

When stated clearly, the terminology is not confusing.
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I agree & I very much like your 'rail side' term for the shot when both balls are frozen.
 
pool101 said:
I don't think so... If my answer is not correct just tell me where it is wrong. Even shooting down the rail the pocket is on the left, move the both balls off the rail 3 inches and I tell you shoot it with inside english, now which pocket is inside english? Both...
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I was being a bit facetious. You were correct. Yes I would also think that most would understand this example as well. The pocket side is the inside.

Regards,
 
FranCrimi said:
How can anyone who teaches pool think that there is inside and outside English on a shot with no angle? I'm stumped.
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Ms. Crimi,

That's why I like Mr. Jewitt's term of 'rail side' for the two balls frozen to the rail. It's simple & quick with no need for any further clarification.

But...when off the rail with a straight in shot with NO angle, obviously you are correct.

Then I think right or left would be more correct unless one is going to cheat the pocket & 'create' a small angle.

I by no means, purport to be telling you anything. I was just trying to help clarify for others that may be reading.

Respectfully & with Regards,
 
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What about a dead-straight shot into a side pocket? Is using the terms inside or outside useful? Not in my opinion.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Ms. Crimi,

That's why I like Mr. Jewitt's term of 'rail side' for the two balls frozen to the rail. It's simple & quick with no need for any further clarification.

But...when off the rail with a straight in shot with NO angle, obviously you are correct.

Then I think right or left would be more correct unless one is going to cheat the pocket & 'create' a small angle.

I by no means, purport to be telling you anything. I was just trying to help clarify for others that may be reading.

Respectfully & with Regards,
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I totally agree about rail side, Rick. I like the term. But rail side is not inside or outside which was discussed in the first couple of posts in this thread in relation to a shot with no angle.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
What about a dead-straight shot into a side pocket? Is using the terms inside or outside useful? Not in my opinion.
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Then it would be left or right, the original question was about the shot along the rail..
If it was straight in why would you use left or right?
 
To create an angle that doesn't exist.

Is the shot along the rail perfectly straight also? Then it would be left or right also.

pool101 said:
Then it would be left or right, the original question was about the shot along the rail..
If it was straight in why would you use left or right?
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FranCrimi said:
I totally agree about rail side, Rick. I like the term. But rail side is not inside or outside which was discussed in the first couple of posts in this thread in relation to a shot with no angle.
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Ms. Crimi,

I hear you & I was trying to help oshua86 wrap his mind around it to only now find out that he is a PBIA 'certified' instructor.

As I initially told him, if he 'sees' it as outside because of how the CB goes into the OB with the swerve, then okay because as you say, with no angle there really is no inside or outside. If he 'sees' the ball spinning with outside from his perspective due to the swerve aspect, that's viable once the ball is in motion because an angle has been 'created' by the squirt & is coming back from the middle of the table. If the ball on the rail was being shot from the middle of the table it would be outside spin.

The thing is, I took his intent to be from a player trying to get his 'mind' around a shot & not as an instructor questioning how to best describe it to a potential student.

I hope you see my point.

Again with Regards & Respect,
 
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oshua86 said:
Like I said this might be a silly question with a easy answer...
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It's not a silly question at all, and as evidenced by this thread, there isn't an easy answer. So many terms used in pool are used with different definitions.

Ask a hundred players their definition of centerball, and you'll get just about as many definitions. It's a good idea to ask how their using the terms.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
To create an angle that doesn't exist.

Is the shot along the rail perfectly straight also? Then it would be left or right also.
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I would think the shot along the rail, you are trying to make the OB throw left to make it hold the rail so in effect the pocket is to the left, if you wanted it to go straight you would shot it straight except that will not work..
On a straight in shot, does spin create an angle? If so is it still a straight in?
Mark
 
I use TOI Left to hit the left side of the pocket, or TOI Right to hit the right

Tony_in_MD said:
What about a dead-straight shot into a side pocket? Is using the terms inside or outside useful? Not in my opinion.
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Typically it's not useful, however, even on straight in shots I'm usually creating an angle to "cheat" the pocket. When you're straight in you don't have many options to play position so you do have to create an angle to get outside the line of the shot. I use TOI Left to hit the left side of the pocket, or TOI Right to hit the right side of the pocket. This isn't "english", but it is considered "inside" according to the TOI Technique.
 
More help is gotten by cheating the pocket a bit. So there is a slight angle. I still think that just using the terms right or left english is better in this situation.

All of this discussion makes me wonder what everyone's opinion is as to how much angle is needed in order to classify the english as inside or outside.



pool101 said:
I would think the shot along the rail, you are trying to make the OB throw left to make it hold the rail so in effect the pocket is to the left, if you wanted it to go straight you would shot it straight except that will not work..
On a straight in shot, does spin create an angle? If so is it still a straight in?
Mark
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And here we go again, find the opportunity to say something negative about me. You are stumped that someone like me had the balls to see this shot explained over and over and over again in videos, books, magazines, etc and see that it did not make sense as it was explained and come here to try and figure out the right answer whether I'm certified or not. What you should be amazed is how information like this has been passed down in publication, by instructors, world champions and they all go along by saying "yeah this shot is made with inside English", and NO ONE argues the point. Ok, you and several others are against PBIA "certified" instructors, or a certification program, y'all just want "tested", well known, many years of experience, world champions, (hmm anything else?) to teach pool. Well here comes the surprise, before I posted that question here, I asked Ray Martin, and I'm sure most of you that have been playing for a while know who he is, currently his full time job is teach pool, 3 time world champion, been playing since he was 11 years old and he was born in the 30s (lots of years playing pool); so I ask him about that shot and why everywhere it says it's being shot with inside English and how that did not make any sense, after I explained why he tells me "well, I understand your point, but that shot has been thought that way always and it will always be that way".

At the end of the day we all going to make mistakes and be wrong about things, I'm here because I love this game and I'm always looking for a way to take my game to the next level. I come here and ask questions because I like to talk about pool, I want the information to be there, a lot of times I already know the answer to the question, but a lot of times I don't. I would much rather see tons of threads in this forums about pool questions and pool discussions than the silly childish call naming crap that goes on in here when the majority of you are quite much older than I am.

FranCrimi said:
How can anyone who teaches pool think that there is inside and outside English on a shot with no angle? I'm stumped.
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Going back to the subject at hand FranCrimi stated that there is no inside or outside on shots with no angles; on which she is right; from a theorical point of view. What do I mean by this? Well the reason why I did not think of her answer the very first time I saw the shot is because in my mind (I don't know about everyone else) I see shots in constant motion. Even on perfectly straigh in shots, since the pocket is always bigger than the balls, anytime you use English on a shot an angle will be created. Therefore; in theory even straight in shots on which English was applied could be classified as "inside" or "outside" after the shot was executed.
 
oshua86 said:
Going back to the subject at hand FranCrimi stated that there is no inside or outside on shots with no angles; on which she is right; from a theorical point of view. What do I mean by this? Well the reason why I did not think of her answer the very first time I saw the shot is because in my mind (I don't know about everyone else) I see shots in constant motion. Even on perfectly straigh in shots, since the pocket is always bigger than the balls, anytime you use English on a shot an angle will be created. Therefore; in theory even straight in shots on which English was applied could be classified as "inside" or "outside" after the shot was executed.
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Yoshua,

The ball in motion & ultimate angle is what I was referring to when I thought I was just trying to help you to wrap you mind around the shot, before I had knowledge that you are an instuctor. As I meant then, what ever you have to see in your mind to help you make the shot is fine. But then we find out that you are an instuctor & may be concerned as much or more so as to how the shot should be 'correctly' described. To me, that is a different issue & would need to be approached from a different mind set.

Consider this. When the two(2) balls are frozen to the rail, what is the inside of the table & what is the outside the table? Does that cause even more confusion for some.

Also, let's use an example of a straight in shot. If we cheat the pocket to either side by applying a very slight cut then we have made an angle, but if I have made an angle to the left & hit with right & what would be outside relative to the angle then I will probably mis the shot due to the SIT. So, I would create the angle to the left & hit it with left english to throw it back toward the center of the pocket. This would be inside english.

If I were coaching you on the shot & simply said hit it with inside english, what side, right or left, would you hit the shot & which angle would you 'create?

That is Ms. Crimi's point & she is correct. Without an angle for reference there can really be no inside or outside talk until an angle has been establish.

Just my $0.02 worth opinion & I am not a 'certified' instructor.

Regards,
 
oshua86...One thing to remember, and Tony mentioned it already, is that we can still shoot on the vertical axis, in a straight on shot, and merely create an angle by cheating the pocket. Adding sidespin would, imo, be related to what you wanted the CB to do after contacting a rail (in other words, something different than where natural angle and natural roll would take the CB). Certainly the shot you picked (both balls frozen on the rail) benefits from using inside spin (which could be left or right depending on which side the the table the shot was set up on). :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

oshua86 said:
Even on perfectly straigh in shots, since the pocket is always bigger than the balls, anytime you use English on a shot an angle will be created. Therefore; in theory even straight in shots on which English was applied could be classified as "inside" or "outside" after the shot was executed.
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