Open Letter to Justin from TAR

[Palmerfan]

Justin I am a supporter of TAR, its dedication to growing the game and the great matchups and have written just that here on AZ as well as purchased many of the streams, so I want to start off by saying thank you for the opportunity you've given to watch some great pool.

I was surprised to hear your comments on the TAR #25 podcast on straight pool especially after watching your TAR Schmidt/Harriman match a few years ago and then your open offer last year to both of them on AZ to come back and settle it. I know Harriman is crazy and got mad at the 2k offer to Schmidt before he was contacted but we all know he's batshit crazy and not the issue here for me.

You seem pretty negative on straight pool when you say there are "100 people interested in 14.1 pool and they all post on the internet" (AZ), which I know is a joke but there are alot of people who would pay to see 2 top 14.1 guys go at it in a race to 200 or 300 again as just one of the 3 disciplines for the overall match. The "I dont care if its the best game in the world..go play it in your basement" seemed harsh, I think the people who pay for the TAR matchups would love to see 14.1 as one of the three games in a TAR match along with the 10 ball and 1 pocket. Other then Shane, Orcollo and Busty (Rotation guys for the most part) almost all the other players that have been on your TAR streams also play Straight Pool and play it well..(Appleton, Archer, Schmidt..now soon Efren who was a 14.1 WT finalist this year) just a ton of 14.1 guys out there and people would pay (in my opinion) to see some other players/matchups with say Mika, Neils, Thorsten, Oliver, Schmidt, Archer and Appleton..etc play an all around with 14.1 being 1 of the 3 disciplines. Most Euros are excellent 14.1 players.

Also wanted to know why you don't accept the 14.1 World Tournament as just that..the field had every top 14.1 player from around the world there, and even the year before in New Brunswick had Sigel and Ray Martin along with a TOP field as well, you can see alot of those matches on youtube...GREAT event with the worlds best straight pool players so why are you so adamant about not calling it "World"? It has the best 14.1 players from around the world..isn't that the reason to call it World? Is it a Dragon Promotions or a Charlie Williams thing, that you don't feel its run correctly for whatever reason?

Anyway i'm not trying to stir shit up, just wanted to know where the anti-14.1 comes from, get some opinions from forum members to see if they would pay for a stream with 14.1 as one of the 3 games so as to maybe change your mind a little, and if you would reconsider putting 14.1 back in the rotation if the matchup called for it...and of course the fans would pay for the stream which I imagine would be concern #1. If fans did pay for the match (and anyone reading this please say yes or no so Justin can get a feel) with 14.1 in there wouldn't that be the deciding factor to "outrun the nuts" as you say and make a profit?

Either way again thanks again for all you do for the fans of all pool.

 

[Icon of Sin]

The TAR model is to attract viewers and make money. More people (myself included) would rather watch 9ball/10ball, even 8ball therefore TAR will need to cater to them.

Seriously, I would be shocked if they had 100 viewers for a straight pool PPV.

 

[CreeDo]

Maybe a poll is called for?

I know... "yeah, 500 dudes will swear they want to see straight pool in the poll, then by the start of the match only 15 of them actually got out their wallets."

For the record I'll buy a straight pool match with john S, toasti, mika, danny, etc.

 

[cleary]

Justin I am a supporter of TAR, its dedication to growing the game and the great matchups and have written just that here on AZ as well as purchased many of the streams, so I want to start off by saying thank you for the opportunity you've given to watch some great pool.

I was surprised to hear your comments on the TAR #25 podcast on straight pool especially after watching your TAR Schmidt/Harriman match a few years ago and then your open offer last year to both of them on AZ to come back and settle it. I know Harriman is crazy and got mad at the 2k offer to Schmidt before he was contacted but we all know he's batshit crazy and not the issue here for me.

You seem pretty negative on straight pool when you say there are "100 people interested in 14.1 pool and they all post on the internet" (AZ), which I know is a joke but there are alot of people who would pay to see 2 top 14.1 guys go at it in a race to 200 or 300 again as just one of the 3 disciplines for the overall match. The "I dont care if its the best game in the world..go play it in your basement" seemed harsh, I think the people who pay for the TAR matchups would love to see 14.1 as one of the three games in a TAR match along with the 10 ball and 1 pocket. Other then Shane, Orcollo and Busty (Rotation guys for the most part) almost all the other players that have been on your TAR streams also play Straight Pool and play it well..(Appleton, Archer, Schmidt..now soon Efren who was a 14.1 WT finalist this year) just a ton of 14.1 guys out there and people would pay (in my opinion) to see some other players/matchups with say Mika, Neils, Thorsten, Oliver, Schmidt, Archer and Appleton..etc play an all around with 14.1 being 1 of the 3 disciplines. Most Euros are excellent 14.1 players.

Also wanted to know why you don't accept the 14.1 World Tournament as just that..the field had every top 14.1 player from around the world there, and even the year before in New Brunswick had Sigel and Ray Martin along with a TOP field as well, you can see alot of those matches on youtube...GREAT event with the worlds best straight pool players so why are you so adamant about not calling it "World"? It has the best 14.1 players from around the world..isn't that the reason to call it World? Is it a Dragon Promotions or a Charlie Williams thing, that you don't feel its run correctly for whatever reason?

Anyway i'm not trying to stir shit up, just wanted to know where the anti-14.1 comes from, get some opinions from forum members to see if they would pay for a stream with 14.1 as one of the 3 games so as to maybe change your mind a little, and if you would reconsider putting 14.1 back in the rotation if the matchup called for it...and of course the fans would pay for the stream which I imagine would be concern #1. If fans did pay for the match (and anyone reading this please say yes or no so Justin can get a feel) with 14.1 in there wouldn't that be the deciding factor to "outrun the nuts" as you say and make a profit?

Either way again thanks again for all you do for the fans of all pool.

The fact of the matter is, he's right. There is a very small amount of 14.1 fans. Case & point, how many 14.1 tournaments are there? I know of the "World 14.1", which struggles and if it weren't for Dr. Fednak it might not exist. And also the Maryland state championship. I cannot think of another one...

It's most popular in nyc and honestly it's not even THAT popular here. I would doubt Justin has anything personal against the game, but it just doesn't sell.

 

[Palmerfan]

TAR model

The TAR model is to attract viewers and make money. More people (myself included) would rather watch 9ball/10ball, even 8ball therefore TAR will need to cater to them.

Seriously, I would be shocked if they had 100 viewers for a straight pool PPV.

I'm not saying a straight pool PPV only..I'm saying if the matchup had 2 guys that were top 14.1 players then put it in as 1 of the 3 disciplines and remove 8 ball.

 

[Palmerfan]

The fact of the matter is, he's right. There is a very small amount of 14.1 fans. Case & point, how many 14.1 tournaments are there? I know of the "World 14.1", which struggles and if it weren't for Dr. Fednak it might not exist. And also the Maryland state championship. I cannot think of another one...

It's most popular in nyc and honestly it's not even THAT popular here. I would doubt Justin has anything personal against the game, but it just doesn't sell.

Agreed not too many 14.1 tournaments but a respected purist game that could sell as 1 of 3 games in an overall if the players are known for it. Also you play out of Amsterdam and Danny's 14.1 League is pretty popular. But you might be right..

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

I'm not saying a straight pool PPV only..I'm saying if the matchup had 2 guys that were top 14.1 players then put it in as 1 of the 3 disciplines and remove 8 ball.

Personally I think 8 ball is one of the best games out there..Its like straight pool but u only have 7 options to get out of a jam instead of 15..The general public can also relate to 8 ball.They know the rules and they have played.straight pool is just boring imo.Guy gets out of line and gets to pick another ball.U get out of line on the 8 ball u gotta come with it.No argument here though.I just feel when trying to sell a product u have to go more along the lines of what the general public has interest in.

 

[ChicagoJoe]

Personally I think 8 ball is one of the best games out there..Its like straight pool but u only have 7 options to get out of a jam instead of 15..The general public can also relate to 8 ball.They know the rules and they have played.straight pool is just boring imo.Guy gets out of line and gets to pick another ball.U get out of line on the 8 ball u gotta come with it.No argument here though.I just feel when trying to sell a product u have to go more along the lines of what the general public has interest in.

My buddy says things like this. "it's an easy game, you can just shoot at anything"

For the record, i probably enjoy watching high level 14.1 more than anything.

 

[Taco]

I don't like playing 14.1 - I don't have the skills or the patience - but I love watching it played at a high level. When I was younger it was the default game in every tournament. The first tournament I ever saw was at the Roosevelt Hotel in NY, sometime in the early 80s. Miz was playing, and many others. I understand the need for paying customers, and I'm sure you're right that 14.1 wouldn't be much of a draw, but I for one would love to see it.

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

My buddy says things like this. "it's an easy game, you can just shoot at anything"

For the record, i probably enjoy watching high level 14.1 more than anything.

To each their own..Why I said personally.But I believe if u take a general vote 8 ball will be way ahead...How much of the general vote purchases actual online stream, I have no idea.straight pool to me is just a practice game.That is me though.

 

[cleary]

My buddy says things like this. "it's an easy game, you can just shoot at anything"

For the record, i probably enjoy watching high level 14.1 more than anything.

I doubt Put_upor_Shutup has ever played straight pool but if there was 14.1 action, I'm sure he would learn.

 

[bdorman]

I might be mistaken, but aren't the TAR matches available on a day-by-day basis?

If you have 500 viewers for 10-ball day, great.
If you have 500 viewers for one-pocket day, great.
If you have 100 viewers for 14.1 day, you just turned a profit into a loss.

If TAR takes many losses like that it will go out of business.

Don't get me wrong; I really enjoy 14.1. I like fresh chutney too, but can't find a restaurant that serves it.

 

[bank buster]

Personally, I would rather watch two top players in a 14.1 match versus watching the same two players in a one pocket match.
I enjoy what TAR is putting out there for the players and the fans, keep up the great work!

 

[ChicagoJoe]

To each their own..Why I said personally.But I believe if u take a general vote 8 ball will be way ahead...How much of the general vote purchases actual online stream, I have no idea.straight pool to me is just a practice game.That is me though.

I don't ever recall watching pros play 8 ball on a 9 footer, but don't most consider it the easiest game? Watching pros play on bar boxes certainly humbled my opinion of my own game, very few safes and tons of run outs. I'd like to see the run continue. If people have the patience and interest for one pocket, i don't know why it wouldn't be there for 14.1.

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

I don't ever recall watching pros play 8 ball on a 9 footer, but don't most consider it the easiest game? Watching pros play on bar boxes certainly humbled my opinion of my own game, very few safes and tons of run outs. I'd like to see the run continue. If people have the patience and interest for one pocket, i don't know why it wouldn't be there for 14.1.

i believe it is tougher on a bar table to be honest..

 

[thewhiffer]

I have been a subscriber to TAR, and other ppv, and also travel extensively to see major tournaments in person. I would rate myself as someone with an above average love of the game, both as a spectator and amateur player.

Palmerfan, I take at face value your love for, and appreciation of straight pool. The fact that you would take it on yourself to place an open letter like this speaks volumes in respect of validating that. The well reasoned and presented viewpoint further adds to that impression. However, in my opinion, I believe that you are in the minority.

I have listened to one stream commentator that I know, and have played against, talk ad nauseum of his love of straight pool and how it is his game of choice as he revels in the delight of the chat room gang as some chatters seem to think that this adds to his pool credentials. I have not seen him practice, play or watch a game of 14.1 in the 15 years I've known him. He also claims to play a lot of snooker which, again, is simply not the case.

I think that the comments attributed to Justin (I didn't hear him say it) in respect of the lack of an overall audience for 14.1 are bang on. Justin seems to have a clear handle on who his audience is and what they want (his choices in participants also support this). In my humble opinion, 14.1 is a discipline that has had it's day, it is a self indulgent exercise for those who practice it at the highest levels and boring for the spectator.

While I would love to see more 8 ball (I enjoy the strategy) matches, I realize that the majority prefer 9 ball and 10 ball. The 10 foot table adds an interesting dimension. The recent talk of having a match with more than one discipline i.e. 8 ball, 9 ball and snooker holds some interest for me. while I would never watch 14.1, even if free, regardless of the participants I respect that there may be some, perhaps many, that do like it.

 

[cleary]

If people have the patience and interest for one pocket, i don't know why it wouldn't be there for 14.1.

One pocket has a lot of back and forth. It can be a very quick game or a very slow game. If it's quick, it's all offense. If it's slow, it's back and forth with moving. 14.1 can be very boring just watching people pocket balls. There is some back and forth, but for the most part it's a runout game that seemingly never ends.

 

[JCIN]

Justin I am a supporter of TAR, its dedication to growing the game and the great matchups and have written just that here on AZ as well as purchased many of the streams, so I want to start off by saying thank you for the opportunity you've given to watch some great pool.

I was surprised to hear your comments on the TAR #25 podcast on straight pool especially after watching your TAR Schmidt/Harriman match a few years ago and then your open offer last year to both of them on AZ to come back and settle it. I know Harriman is crazy and got mad at the 2k offer to Schmidt before he was contacted but we all know he's batshit crazy and not the issue here for me.

You seem pretty negative on straight pool when you say there are "100 people interested in 14.1 pool and they all post on the internet" (AZ), which I know is a joke but there are alot of people who would pay to see 2 top 14.1 guys go at it in a race to 200 or 300 again as just one of the 3 disciplines for the overall match. The "I dont care if its the best game in the world..go play it in your basement" seemed harsh, I think the people who pay for the TAR matchups would love to see 14.1 as one of the three games in a TAR match along with the 10 ball and 1 pocket. Other then Shane, Orcollo and Busty (Rotation guys for the most part) almost all the other players that have been on your TAR streams also play Straight Pool and play it well..(Appleton, Archer, Schmidt..now soon Efren who was a 14.1 WT finalist this year) just a ton of 14.1 guys out there and people would pay (in my opinion) to see some other players/matchups with say Mika, Neils, Thorsten, Oliver, Schmidt, Archer and Appleton..etc play an all around with 14.1 being 1 of the 3 disciplines. Most Euros are excellent 14.1 players.

Also wanted to know why you don't accept the 14.1 World Tournament as just that..the field had every top 14.1 player from around the world there, and even the year before in New Brunswick had Sigel and Ray Martin along with a TOP field as well, you can see alot of those matches on youtube...GREAT event with the worlds best straight pool players so why are you so adamant about not calling it "World"? It has the best 14.1 players from around the world..isn't that the reason to call it World? Is it a Dragon Promotions or a Charlie Williams thing, that you don't feel its run correctly for whatever reason?

Anyway i'm not trying to stir shit up, just wanted to know where the anti-14.1 comes from, get some opinions from forum members to see if they would pay for a stream with 14.1 as one of the 3 games so as to maybe change your mind a little, and if you would reconsider putting 14.1 back in the rotation if the matchup called for it...and of course the fans would pay for the stream which I imagine would be concern #1. If fans did pay for the match (and anyone reading this please say yes or no so Justin can get a feel) with 14.1 in there wouldn't that be the deciding factor to "outrun the nuts" as you say and make a profit?

Either way again thanks again for all you do for the fans of all pool.

I am just stating my experiences when it comes to 14.1 with regards to what actually sells. I guess I put the question back to you....if it is so popular how come no one is selling it ?

As to the World/Inter-Galactic/Pan-Universe 14.1 tournament I dont really spend a lot of time thinking about it other than to chuckle at the fact that Charlie has the ability to make four guys playing in his basement into some sort of world championship. My only gripe with the world tournament was people calling it something its really not. But hey if the people who play in it want to call it a world championship then more power to them and if Charlie wants to start his own little hall of fame then rock on. I just don't see it the same way. Different strokes for different folks.

I went to one of the World/Inter-Galactic/Pan-Universe tournaments one year when I was in Jersey for something else. I respect people for putting events together and for the players for getting out and supporting things but I gotta tell you if you walked someone in the tournament I saw and told them it was a World Championship they would of looked at you like you were nuts.

End of the day I would put 14.1 in an all around if it was the right guys. I would even do 14.1 as a whole match if someone wants to sponsor the match and I don't have to take all the risk. I really dont care about 14.1 too much one way or the other I just know what my experience is when it comes to selling it.

 

[bfdlad]

This is a great topic that can be looked at from a couple of different angles. 14.1 is not for me but I did a challenge match with Archer and Strickland and decided to add that game to the mix of things. One of the best 14.1 matches ever played (I was told by a number of well respected 14.1 players) It caught the attention of the spectators who were actually at the event. There is a market imo to add 14.1 to an all around but only as an addition to 8-ball and 10-ball or 9-ball. The market is too dmall and although the OP may love it and think that there is a big market for it does not mean that there is. The true tester as to if the OP REALLY thinks it would be a money maker is to sponsor the event. I always say this when people tell me how this will work or that will work and its guarenteed to be a money maker. If someone is that sold on an idea then I say make a deal with TAR. Pay all the expenses and the cost of putting one of these events on and have TAR split the profit with you. Now usually when I put their money at risk of being lost if it is not as popular as they thiink in kinda goes quiet.
I don't mean to be rude or offend anyone, its just easier to talk about how great something will be when there is no money to be lost.

 

[bfdlad]

FYI, I must have been writing this at the same time as Justin was. As he kinda says the same thing in some parts. Was not copying.