Rules on Foul by Touching Cluster of Balls

N

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello pool fans,
I played a guy one pocket, big money game, he broke, and there were at least 8 balls clustered at his side of table, he cannot bank or shoot straight, kept locking him up behind them, finally he shot a good safe on me and his cue dropped from his hand on top of them where almost all balls are playable on his pocket, did he mean it or accident, whatever, CB did not touch any of them, he said sorry put them back where you think they were! so i jammed them together worse than they were, and made sure he has no shot, he did not like it, also had him pay a ball, i wanted a CB in hand behind the line he refused!!. Ended up winning-luckily.

What is the actual rules? i know if it is one ball it is not big deal, but cluster of balls??

Thanks in advance to all replies..
 
naji said:
What is the actual rules? i know if it is one ball it is not big deal, but cluster of balls??

Thanks in advance to all replies..
Click to expand...

I think you're supposed to strip him naked, hang him from the nearest tree, and flog the sh*t out of him with bamboo poles until he begs for mercy and promises to never pull THAT move again.

Yeah......that should do it!!!

Maniac (obviously doesn't know the real rule)
 
From onepocket.org:

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.
 
Exerpt from the onepocket.org rules section:

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.

To see the rules go to:

http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm
 
Maniac said:
I think you're supposed to strip him naked, hang him from the nearest tree, and flog the sh*t out of him with bamboo poles until he begs for mercy and promises to never pull THAT move again.

Yeah......that should do it!!!

Maniac (obviously doesn't know the real rule)
Click to expand...

I gave him the benefit of the doubt this time, since it is his first major incident of this magnitude. I will keep an eye on him..


Thanks to other posters, i disagree with the way the official rules read, it shouldn't say "both players to agree", the offending player has to pay for it! provided the other player does not wire dead balls to his hole! Mainly because if one player is just a beginner and the other is advance player you see my point!!
 
naji said:
I gave him the benefit of the doubt this time, since it is his first major incident of this magnitude. I will keep an eye on him..


Thanks to other posters, i disagree with the way the official rules read, it shouldn't say "both players to agree", the offending player has to pay for it! provided the other player does not wire dead balls to his hole! Mainly because if one player is just a beginner and the other is advance player you see my point!!
Click to expand...
You asked what the actual rule is, and that's it. If you want to play differently (foul on all balls, for example), you'd need to negotiate that with your opponent.

I've had this happen before, but I usually play with people I know well, so we've agreed to start the game over. I've only had this happen early in the game when the stack is still pretty much intact, so resetting the game isn't that big a deal if it's an honest mistake.
 
naji said:
Hello pool fans,
I played a guy one pocket, big money game, he broke, and there were at least 8 balls clustered at his side of table, he cannot bank or shoot straight, kept locking him up behind them, finally he shot a good safe on me and his cue dropped from his hand on top of them where almost all balls are playable on his pocket, did he mean it or accident, whatever, CB did not touch any of them, he said sorry put them back where you think they were! so i jammed them together worse than they were, and made sure he has no shot, he did not like it, also had him pay a ball, i wanted a CB in hand behind the line he refused!!. Ended up winning-luckily.

What is the actual rules? i know if it is one ball it is not big deal, but cluster of balls??

Thanks in advance to all replies..
Click to expand...

It sounds like he made an honest mistake and you took advantage by cheating him. By your own admission you put them back "worse than they were". This is not what the rules or good sportsmanship dictate. You will never know for sure if what he did was an accident or a move as you can't read others minds but you are responsible for your own behavior.

JC
 
naji said:
Hello pool fans,
I played a guy one pocket, big money game, he broke, and there were at least 8 balls clustered at his side of table, he cannot bank or shoot straight, kept locking him up behind them, finally he shot a good safe on me and his cue dropped from his hand on top of them where almost all balls are playable on his pocket, did he mean it or accident, whatever, CB did not touch any of them, he said sorry put them back where you think they were! so i jammed them together worse than they were, and made sure he has no shot, he did not like it, also had him pay a ball, i wanted a CB in hand behind the line he refused!!. Ended up winning-luckily.

What is the actual rules? i know if it is one ball it is not big deal, but cluster of balls??

Thanks in advance to all replies..
Click to expand...

You're the one who actually broke the rules here. Unless the balls he touched were in the cue ball's path, there is no foul. If he made a legal hit with the cue ball, you should have not made him pay a ball.

Putting the balls back purposely harder than they were is pretty unsportsmanlike on your part.
 
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D WEATHERSBY II said:
Exerpt from the onepocket.org rules section:

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.

To see the rules go to:

http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm
Click to expand...
Under the "cue ball fouls only" section of the BCAPL rules, if the player disturbs more than one object ball, it is a foul. I've seen this in several tournaments.

The WSR regulations also say that under "cue ball fouls only" the players must come to an agreement about the restoration.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Under the "cue ball fouls only" section of the BCAPL rules, if the player disturbs more than one object ball, it is a foul. I've seen this in several tournaments.

The WSR regulations also say that under "cue ball fouls only" the players must come to an agreement about the restoration.
Click to expand...
I have also seen this rule in tournaments.

For everyone's reference, here is the text of the WSR rule that applies:

1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.
 
naji said:
Hello pool fans,
I played a guy one pocket, big money game, he broke, and there were at least 8 balls clustered at his side of table, he cannot bank or shoot straight, kept locking him up behind them, finally he shot a good safe on me and his cue dropped from his hand on top of them where almost all balls are playable on his pocket, did he mean it or accident, whatever, CB did not touch any of them, he said sorry put them back where you think they were! so i jammed them together worse than they were, and made sure he has no shot, he did not like it, also had him pay a ball, i wanted a CB in hand behind the line he refused!!. Ended up winning-luckily.

What is the actual rules? i know if it is one ball it is not big deal, but cluster of balls??

Thanks in advance to all replies..
Click to expand...

Usually it is afoul to move more than 1ball even if you are playing cueball fouls so the ball owed is not the issue... The issue is the deliberate jamming of the balls admittedly worse than they were which is a definite sportsmanship violation... Sportsmanship violations are loss of game so your opponent actually won......
 
The Renfro said:
That the same as the ball must go clean in called shot Can't touch the rail going in LOL....

It's a new one to me regardless but it may be a regional thing....
Click to expand...

loss of game for moving 3 balls is not that uncommon. It is often played that way in the room I hang out in.
 
I play a good bit of one pocket, and I think it is just a case by case. Most people I play we just play cue ball only fouls. Generally if you bump a ball it barely moves. If I have to play all ball fouls I normally just stay away because I am only 5-7 so I am vertically challenged you might say. I think the OP was a bit harsh, but I was not there to see the severity of it. I would never consider ball in hand because of bumping a ball no matter what. If the balls were moved to the point where neither one of us could agree on where they were before we would just replay the game.
 
The Renfro said:
Usually it is afoul to move more than 1ball even if you are playing cueball fouls so the ball owed is not the issue... The issue is the deliberate jamming of the balls admittedly worse than they were which is a definite sportsmanship violation... Sportsmanship violations are loss of game so your opponent actually won......
Click to expand...

It is not tournament, it is money game. We both knew the balls were clustered in such a way that he has no shot or kick at them and blocking the long bank for him, but we both do not know exactly how they were sitting, what do you do, just set them arbitrary and leave something dead to his hole and not know it until it is too late (maybe that is what he was hoping for)? i simply made sure he has no dead ball and no single shot, was worse than they were maybe, but at the end of the day it is my money! I understand if they were up table or away from his hole, or just one or two that moved, but for Christ sake he almost had a break shot on them by dropping the cue on the balls. If we had a stream and luxury of knowing exactly where balls are sure we will put them exactly where they were.


I kinda agree with more than three balls / loss of game.
 
naji said:
It is not tournament, it is money game. We both knew the balls were clustered in such a way that he has no shot or kick at them and blocking the long bank for him, but we both do not know exactly how they were sitting, what do you do, just set them arbitrary and leave something dead to his hole and not know it until it is too late (maybe that is what he was hoping for)? i simply made sure he has no dead ball and no single shot, was worse than they were maybe, but at the end of the day it is my money! I understand if they were up table or away from his hole, or just one or two that moved, but for Christ sake he almost had a break shot on them by dropping the cue on the balls. If we had a stream and luxury of knowing exactly where balls are sure we will put them exactly where they were.


I kinda agree with more than three balls / loss of game.
Click to expand...

On a more serious note: It definitely would not have been at all fair if the person who drops his cuestick on a badly clustered bunch of balls gains any advantage from it. I don't think the OP was too far out of line for putting the balls back to where there was definitely NOT a shot to be had. If his opponent didn't like that solution, he shouldn't have been clutzy enough to drop his cue on the stack. The one that commits the crime should do the time, so to speak. At the very worst, I would have offered to re-rack and start that game over. The OP doesn't say anything about any balls being made by either player, so I would suppose that a re-rack would've been the most amicable solution.

Maniac (keep the bamboo poles handy, just in case :wink:)
 
Maniac said:
On a more serious note: It definitely would not have been at all fair if the person who drops his cuestick on a badly clustered bunch of balls gains any advantage from it. I don't think the OP was too far out of line for putting the balls back to where there was definitely NOT a shot to be had. If his opponent didn't like that solution, he shouldn't have been clutzy enough to drop his cue on the stack. The one that commits the crime should do the time, so to speak. At the very worst, I would have offered to re-rack and start that game over. The OP doesn't say anything about any balls being made by either player, so I would suppose that a re-rack would've been the most amicable solution.

Maniac (keep the bamboo poles handy, just in case :wink:)
Click to expand...

I have 4 balls he has none, i offered to start new game with me having 4 balls, he did not like it. All balls at his side of the table, i felt giving him any advantage would have been costly. Therefore i was tough on placing the balls as close to were they were as possible, making sure he has no possible advantage. Eventually i was able to kick them up table one at a time. I will be careful from now on!!

Thank M
 
naji said:
I have 4 balls he has none, i offered to start new game with me having 4 balls, he did not like it. All balls at his side of the table, i felt giving him any advantage would have been costly. Therefore i was tough on placing the balls as close to were they were as possible, making sure he has no possible advantage. Eventually i was able to kick them up table one at a time. I will be careful from now on!!

Thank M
Click to expand...

First you said you made it harder than it originally was, now you say you put them as close as possible.......
 
naji said:
It is not tournament, it is money game. We both knew the balls were clustered in such a way that he has no shot or kick at them and blocking the long bank for him, but we both do not know exactly how they were sitting, what do you do, just set them arbitrary and leave something dead to his hole and not know it until it is too late (maybe that is what he was hoping for)? i simply made sure he has no dead ball and no single shot, was worse than they were maybe, but at the end of the day it is my money! I understand if they were up table or away from his hole, or just one or two that moved, but for Christ sake he almost had a break shot on them by dropping the cue on the balls. If we had a stream and luxury of knowing exactly where balls are sure we will put them exactly where they were.


I kinda agree with more than three balls / loss of game.
Click to expand...

Its one thing to set them back up close to where they were and not give him something dead if there wasn't any dead balls to begin with. But you specifically stated you arranged them harder than they were.

It also doesn't matter if its a tourney or a money game, you can't just change rules because you don't want to lose money. If it was that big of a money game, you should be agreeing on a standardized set of rules, be it BCA, WPC, or whatever.....and any specific changes.

Regardless, knowingly arranging them harder(by your own description) is a pretty low move. Making the statement "at the end of the day its my money" just shows you knew exactly what you were doing when you set the balls back up.

Sounds like you want people to justify something you did because you were mad and didn't want to lose some money.
 
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