Stolen cue!!! Barry Stewart has my cue.

[SterlingArcher]

The courts, if he gets sued for libel. He's put up enough to merit a case against him, if it what he is saying is false. It doesn't appear to be, but you never know who you are "up against".

The proper course of action, when things get into legal territories, is to remove the online posts, or to make a single post explaining the situation in some detail and then stopping. Devolving into name calling is just bad. Exposing name, address, and phone numbers is very bad, especially if it is to a private residence instead of a place of business. That, IMO, crossed into libel territory.

If I were graciocues' attorney, I would tell him to put a sock in it and clean it up before it derails further. That would include a deletion of this thread and all sub-forums he posted in. His anger and venting has likely taken him into territories he does not want to be in. In all likelihood he will not be able to afford an attorney to defend him when the time comes.

Discussing legal situations, or a course of action, is one thing, naming persons and labeling them is another. If you publish on your blog (azbilliards.com in this case), you had better be 100% solid.

Lookup the online defamation law.

Yep, pretty much this. Sometimes you can get away with saying "so and so is a thief," as there are no specifics. But when you say "so and so stole this exact cue," you get into some bad places if you're not careful. You have made a specific accusation, in which if false, can hinder someone's reputation. In this case if the guy in question buys and sells cues, it can directly hurt his reputation selling cues.

In this situation, where even if he isn't doing the "right" thing by returning the cue, he may in fact be doing the "legal" thing. If that is in fact true, publicly claiming he stole the cue, is a very, very bad idea.

 

[SterlingArcher]

My understanding, based on personal experience in investigating similar cases as a police officer, is slightly different. If an unsolicited item is shipped to you, and you are asked to buy it, or are sent a bill, you are not obligated to either pay for it, or return it. That does not apply, in this case, since it was an accident, and not an intentional or willful act, intended to coerce someone into paying for an item they did not order.

You may be right. In my experience, the FTC does not specify. Either way, as a state or local police officer, unless there is a specific state/local statute, they can't do anything. One would have to refer to someone with FTC or with the Postal Inspectors.

I have seen first hand though, when a buyer gets an extra item, they have no responsibility to send it back. Obviously most due if they are asked though.

However, if someone can find a statute or common law(if in a common law state) then that's a different story. My guess is that this happens so rarely, it would take even an extremely experienced attorney to come up with a way to proceed with this criminally.

 

[Banks]

After some research, just to double check the state law where the cue is.....there is no criminal act with what happened.

Unfortunately, if you accidentally send something in the mail, the recipiant has no legal responsibility to return the misshipped item, and can actually keep it as a "gift."

I'm not sure where you got this from, but it's contrary to anything I've ever seen. If you buy a honda and they mistakenly give you the keys to an acura, you don't get to keep the acura. It's pretty simple and since the receiver knows that what he got was not what he ordered, he is indeed in possession of stolen property if the seller has said that he wants it back. The seller, of course, will be responsible for the cost of the return shipment. Other than that, it's theft if he attempts to keep it. Since it involves interstate commerce, there may even be more to it. One of the reasons that those laws exist is also to prevent people from using the "out of reach" idea to pull similar stunts and encourages more trade between states.

 

[SterlingArcher]

I'm not sure where you got this from, but it's contrary to anything I've ever seen. If you buy a honda and they mistakenly give you the keys to an acura, you don't get to keep the acura. It's pretty simple and since the receiver knows that what he got was not what he ordered, he is indeed in possession of stolen property if the seller has said that he wants it back. The seller, of course, will be responsible for the cost of the return shipment. Other than that, it's theft if he attempts to keep it. Since it involves interstate commerce, there may even be more to it. One of the reasons that those laws exist is also to prevent people from using the "out of reach" idea to pull similar stunts and encourages more trade between states.

Again, has to do with the mail. This is a totally separate issue from cars. Its not as simple as you think.

Here's a link for anyone who cares.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

They do not specify "only if they ask for payment." It simply states if you receive merchandise you did not order, you may keep it and you do not even have to notify the sender.

It does cover something sent in error, you should send them a letter stating you are giving them 30 days. However, it does not state if this is just advice or the law. I would recommend making a phone call to the FTC for clarification. My thought is there is probably no set law for this, and they will advise you to file a civil claim.

They do however, recommend you do the right thing and notify the sender. Of course this is just the Good Samaritan thing to do, not necessarily the law.

 

[JB Cases]

Jewelry may actually have some seperate laws depending on the state. Some states actually have laws directly relating to jewelry.

The whole posession is 9/10ths of the law thing is somewhat not true. Basically, if someone has something, its up to someone else to prove its not theirs is the jist of it.

If employees scheme to ship to the wrong address, they merchandise would be considered stolen when the employee knowingly put the wrong label on it.

The short answer for why the mail matters, is to protect consumers from being sent random merchandise in the mail, then trying to get them to pay for it. If you send something unsolicited in the mail, they can keep it.

Say you order a camera from amazon and when you open the package you find two cameras. Technically, the second camera is legally yours. Yes I know, its stupid, but thats the law as of right now.

So, yes, being in the mail is a huge part of it. Very different than just walking over and picking up someone's cue.

Again, there is likely a civil recourse in which he could sue to have the cue returned. However, there is no criminal act that has taken place.

This kind of thing hardly ever happens. Its on the same level as say for example, you are married and have a child. You or your wife decide to just up and leave with your child. If there has been no court order stating otherwise (only way is to petition the court to do such), there is no criminal charge for kidnapping, since both of you are parents. Its a legal grey area, and you would have to appear in front of a judge and have them grant some sort of custody arrangement.

Same thing here, there is no law in place for accidentally mailing something to someone. You would need a judgement to legally force the cue to be returned.

I'm not saying its "right," just that its "legal."

I guess I need a little more than this because not only is it not right I doubt it's legal. If Amazon ships me two cameras then I need to see the relevant law that covers me taking ownership of that second device.

As for being shipped stuff unsolicitied and being asked to pay for it again this comes back to the paper trail. If the shipper has a record of me requesting the item then of course he has a right to attempt to get paid for it. If there is no record then he has no right to ask for payment. He can ask for the item to be returned and offer to compensate me for my effort to return it or he can come and get it but I fail to see how simply receiving an item would ever obligate me to pay for it.

I think any court in the land would throw that out in five minutes. I have actually never heard of that scam where people send out goods unsolicited and then try to extract money for those goods. As far as scams go this one seems very risky and costly for the sender. Not only the massive amount of postage but also the costs involved with attempting to get people to pay after receipt of the goods seems to far outweigh the possible return.

Not arguing just curious because it's an interesting discussion. Do you have any links or did I miss them due to skimming the thread that show this clearly in the law? Or a link to any case showing precedence?

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Allegedly......

Hopefully he gets the cue back, but there still seems to be more too it.

A guy wants a weight bolt, gets a cue by accident, and is telling people he's going to sell it right away? Just doesn't sound right. But hey, I've seen crazier things.

You sound about as smart as the character your username is based on.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Again, has to do with the mail. This is a totally separate issue from cars. Its not as simple as you think.

Here's a link for anyone who cares.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

They do not specify "only if they ask for payment." It simply states if you receive merchandise you did not order, you may keep it and you do not even have to notify the sender.

It does cover something sent in error, you should send them a letter stating you are giving them 30 days. However, it does not state if this is just advice or the law. I would recommend making a phone call to the FTC for clarification. My thought is there is probably no set law for this, and they will advise you to file a civil claim.

They do however, recommend you do the right thing and notify the sender. Of course this is just the Good Samaritan thing to do, not necessarily the law.

After reading it over again, since they first say you have no legal obligation to notify the sender, the following suggestion to notify the sender if its an honest mistake is just a CYA tactic. There doesn't appear to be any legal requirement for you find out if it was sent in error.

So basically this is how it goes:

You receive unsolicited merchandise.....

You can A) just keep it and say nothing

or

B) the FTC advises you(not legally required) notify the company you received the merchandise unsolicited, have the right to keep the merchandise, and if it was sent in error they have X number (recommended 30 days) to arrange shipment back at their cost.

Notice they stated you are not legally required to notify them BEFORE they advised you to notify them and give them a reasonable amount of time.

 

[JB Cases]

Again, has to do with the mail. This is a totally separate issue from cars. Its not as simple as you think.

Here's a link for anyone who cares.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

They do not specify "only if they ask for payment." It simply states if you receive merchandise you did not order, you may keep it and you do not even have to notify the sender.

It does cover something sent in error, you should send them a letter stating you are giving them 30 days. However, it does not state if this is just advice or the law. I would recommend making a phone call to the FTC for clarification. My thought is there is probably no set law for this, and they will advise you to file a civil claim.

They do however, recommend you do the right thing and notify the sender. Of course this is just the Good Samaritan thing to do, not necessarily the law.

Thanks. I didn't realize that this is a federal law. But I still wonder about specific situations like Scott is going through. I can see where there should be protection against the "free trial" bait and switch type scam outlined in the FTC page but in the case of an honest mistake I still don't believe that the receiver is allowed to simply assume ownership of the merchandise.

I also seem to remember that there are laws which govern taking intentional advantage of the mistakes of others to profit. There has to be a "goods sent in error" provision somewhere that covers this. But in any case I have just told my wife that we have to be extra-diligent when shipping. One thing we do is to write the receivers name and the contents on the box when packing it. This helps to avoid label mishaps.

Still the guy who received it should have simply said no problem I will get it going to the right guy. Bummer that Scott is having to fade this.

 

[SterlingArcher]

You sound about as smart as the character your username is based on.

Apparently I understand legal matters much better than you.

I'm not saying its right, but it is "legal."

 

[SterlingArcher]

Thanks. I didn't realize that this is a federal law. But I still wonder about specific situations like Scott is going through. I can see where there should be protection against the "free trial" bait and switch type scam outlined in the FTC page but in the case of an honest mistake I still don't believe that the receiver is allowed to simply assume ownership of the merchandise.

Unfortunately they are as far as criminal charges and legal requirements. The situation in which something is mistakenly sent, recognized as a mistake, and then the recipient refuses to send it back is likely VERY rare. In situations where something fairly small rarely comes up, there are many times "loopholes" in the law, as it hasn't happened enough for someone to write the law. They wrote a low protecting the consumer, but likely forgot to add in something that protects honest mistakes by shippers.

Just like when you see signs saying "no diving" when a pool is empty. At some point those signs were not there, and enough people(maybe just one) jumped in and then they made the sign. Its likely this hasn't happened enough to "make a sign."

However, civil law is entirely different. He could very well get a judgement requiring the cue to be returned.

***Again I will note, he should call the FTC or Postal Inspectors to get a 100% clarification on this***

 

[Banks]

Again, has to do with the mail. This is a totally separate issue from cars. Its not as simple as you think.

Here's a link for anyone who cares.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

They do not specify "only if they ask for payment." It simply states if you receive merchandise you did not order, you may keep it and you do not even have to notify the sender.

It does cover something sent in error, you should send them a letter stating you are giving them 30 days. However, it does not state if this is just advice or the law. I would recommend making a phone call to the FTC for clarification. My thought is there is probably no set law for this, and they will advise you to file a civil claim.

They do however, recommend you do the right thing and notify the sender. Of course this is just the Good Samaritan thing to do, not necessarily the law.

That is in reference to people that ship and invoice for unordered product, but includes a comment regarding unintentional shipments:

"Q. What should I do if the unordered merchandise I received was the result of an honest shipping error?
A. Write the seller and offer to return the merchandise, provided the seller pays for postage and handling. Give the seller a specific and reasonable amount of time (say 30 days) to pick up the merchandise or arrange to have it returned at no expense to you. Tell the seller that you reserve the right to keep the merchandise or dispose of it after the specified time has passed."

It doesn't say, "you may offer to return", it says to offer to return it. He has already been notified that it was an incorrect shipment. There really isn't much he can do within the law except to return it.

Again, the page referenced is prefaced with:

"What do you do when you receive merchandise that you didn’t order? According to the Federal Trade Commission, you don’t have to pay for it. Federal laws prohibit mailing unordered merchandise to consumers and then demanding payment."

It isn't for honest errors, it is to prevent scams.

The seller should send a return box and label. If the receiver does not return it, he is in possession of stolen property. He knows it was a shipping error and is attempting to keep somebody else's cue. If commerce worked the way that you tried to read from the site, it would be a huge, huge mess and almost nobody would ship anything. You could have your little sister sign for a package, say you didn't receive it and demand your money back while your sister gets to keep the product.

 

[SterlingArcher]

That is in reference to people that ship and invoice for unordered product, but includes a comment regarding unintentional shipments:

"Q. What should I do if the unordered merchandise I received was the result of an honest shipping error?
A. Write the seller and offer to return the merchandise, provided the seller pays for postage and handling. Give the seller a specific and reasonable amount of time (say 30 days) to pick up the merchandise or arrange to have it returned at no expense to you. Tell the seller that you reserve the right to keep the merchandise or dispose of it after the specified time has passed."

It doesn't say, "you may offer to return", it says to offer to return it. He has already been notified that it was an incorrect shipment. There really isn't much he can do within the law except to return it.

Again, the page referenced is prefaced with:

"What do you do when you receive merchandise that you didn’t order? According to the Federal Trade Commission, you don’t have to pay for it. Federal laws prohibit mailing unordered merchandise to consumers and then demanding payment."

It isn't for honest errors, it is to prevent scams.

The seller should send a return box and label. If the receiver does not return it, he is in possession of stolen property. He knows it was a shipping error and is attempting to keep somebody else's cue. If commerce worked the way that you tried to read from the site, it would be a huge, huge mess and almost nobody would ship anything. You could have your little sister sign for a package, say you didn't receive it and demand your money back while your sister gets to keep the product.

See my explanation above. They do not get into the "recommendations" about what to do until they clearly say "you are not legally required to notify the shipper." The paragraph above the Q/A is to simply state the issue the laws were made to stop, however, there are no laws that help out the shipper. Feel free to find any laws which protect the shipper when they screw up. I have searched and cannot find any.

You are also twisting my words. In no way have I ever said you could claim something wasn't sent. This page also doesn't address any of this.

This isn't the only page I have researched, merely the best one since its with the FTC. You can do a simple google search and find numerous sights where attorneys offer advice. Every one has said you should do the right thing, but legally you don't have to return or notify.

By all means, call the FTC. I'd be curious to hear what they say, though it is likely going to be "well, they could keep it, it wouldn't be right, but there's nothing that stops them."

 

[Banks]

See my explanation above. They do not get into the "recommendations" about what to do until they clearly say "you are not legally required to notify the shipper."

No explanation needed. He didn't notify the shipper, the shipper notified him that he was in possession of somebody else's cue. It doesn't get into the "recommendations" as you say, until later, because as I said before, that page is about consumer protections in the cases of scams.

 

[JB Cases]

After reading it over again, since they first say you have no legal obligation to notify the sender, the following suggestion to notify the sender if its an honest mistake is just a CYA tactic. There doesn't appear to be any legal requirement for you find out if it was sent in error.

So basically this is how it goes:

You receive unsolicited merchandise.....

You can A) just keep it and say nothing

or

B) the FTC advises you(not legally required) notify the company you received the merchandise unsolicited, have the right to keep the merchandise, and if it was sent in error they have X number (recommended 30 days) to arrange shipment back at their cost.

Notice they stated you are not legally required to notify them BEFORE they advised you to notify them and give them a reasonable amount of time.

I think though that even if the receiver is not obligated to inform the sender of the mistake the sender has the legal right to recover their merchandise. I don't think that an error in shipment transfers ownership of the merchandise to the receiver. That's what I would like to find more information on.

 

[SterlingArcher]

I think though that even if the receiver is not obligated to inform the sender of the mistake the sender has the legal right to recover their merchandise. I don't think that an error in shipment transfers ownership of the merchandise to the receiver. That's what I would like to find more information on.

I have tried to find any protections on the sender. Thus far I have found none. It seems to be along the lines of "don't screw up and ship something wrong."

 

[SterlingArcher]

No explanation needed. He didn't notify the shipper, the shipper notified him that he was in possession of somebody else's cue. It doesn't get into the "recommendations" as you say, until later, because as I said before, that page is about consumer protections in the cases of scams.

Feel free to find a statute, be it federally or locally that protects the shipper. I have not been able to find any.

I have searched several legal resource sites, combed through SC statutes, and made a few calls to attorney contacts I have, as this is an interesting issue. Thus far, none have been able to come up with protections when a shipper screws up.

Take notice in the first 2 Q/A questions they use the word "legal" in the answers. In the next 2 questions that deal with notifying the shipper, they do not use the term. This is no mistake. They are making recommendations. There is no legal requirement to notify the shipper of their error. If so, they would have explicitly used the term "legal" so that consumers would realize they have a legal responsibility to notify the shipper. The last thing the FTC would want is someone filing suit on them claiming the first thing they said was they have the legal right to keep something, but they were charged with theft after following this advice.

A call to the FTC or Postal Inspectors would clear it up quickly I'm sure.

 

[snipershot]

I wouldn't. You'd be harassing someone based on internet hearsay.

No, Id be encouraging the guy to do the right thing based on Scott's word, which is good as gold.

Joe

 

[SterlingArcher]

No, Id be encouraging the guy to do the right thing based on Scott's word, which is good as gold.

Joe

Doesn't make it legal, unfortunately.

 

[SloMoHolic]

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but here we go...

During my divorce (before it was final), my medical insurance company sent about $3000 in reimbursements to my soon-to-be-ex-wife's bank account by mistake. These were from medical expenses incurred after we had filed for divorced, lived in separate homes, and had legally-established separate finances.

I called her (because things were still somewhat civil at that point) to ask her to transfer the cash to my account or write me a check. It was just a clerical error, after all.

She tried to shake me down, and wouldn't cooperate, so I ended that phone call and called my lawyer. We notified her lawyer that we would be filing theft charges.

Three hours later, the money was in my account. Basically, her lawyer straightened her right out. A clerical error does not imply transfer of ownership, regardless of who committed the error.

I know the circumstances were different. Mail vs wire, business vs divorce. I'm not a lawyer, and don't pretend to be.

Just sharing my experience with an oddly similar situation.

I will say that I know it's a terrible feeling when another party has possession of your valuable property and won't cooperate.

I hope everybody gets this worked out.

PS, my lawyer got all that money anyway (and much more).

 

[Banks]

Feel free to find a statute, be it federally or locally that protects the shipper. I have not been able to find any.

I have searched several legal resource sites, combed through SC statutes, and made a few calls to attorney contacts I have, as this is an interesting issue. Thus far, none have been able to come up with protections when a shipper screws up.

Take notice in the first 2 Q/A questions they use the word "legal" in the answers. In the next 2 questions that deal with notifying the shipper, they do not use the term. This is no mistake. They are making recommendations. There is no legal requirement to notify the shipper of their error. If so, they would have explicitly used the term "legal" so that consumers would realize they have a legal responsibility to notify the shipper. The last thing the FTC would want is someone filing suit on them claiming the first thing they said was they have the legal right to keep something, but they were charged with theft after following this advice.

A call to the FTC or Postal Inspectors would clear it up quickly I'm sure.

If I were you, I'd consider other representation should you ever need a lawyer. On one of the more recent posts, a lawyer says that the matter becomes a civil one and that a lawsuit may be needed if they do not return the product - replevin - or for the value of the product.

Technically, it was somebody else's product to begin with, while the shipper was only performing an action. The cue still belongs to its original buyer, but the shipper is on the hook for responsibility of the item. He has received somebody else's product, honestly misshipped(and told as much) and it must be returned or compensated for.

I repeat, if that was not the case, there wouldn't be many businesses willing to ship anything worth more than a few bucks.