'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?

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I'm not really sure what the point behind your question is, as even though you say your stroke is "simple, very simple", I would bet it looks much more like a pendulum than a piston.

I think Neil is correct...the small amount the arcs travel is virtually negligible, and results in a straight line at the bottom, but if you still are looking for a "biomechanical" description of how a circle (or arc) can have a staright line as a component...it can't. And you already know that. But considering the small amount the arc translates on the vertical axis, I would surmise that a combination of wrist movement, grip pressure, and simple 'cushion' of the fingers would allow for unconscious (or is it subconscious?) correction to at least the point of negligibility of outcome.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Actually Mr. Avlon, an Advanced PBIA Instructor, seems to think that straight tip travel does not exist in a true pendulum stroke. He seems to doubt that anyone would suggest that it exists.
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When considering arcs and tangents, then the the straight line movement would only be when the cue is tangent to the arc. That's the basis for your argument, and that's fine. No arguments from me.

The thing is that with a pendulum stroke the vertical change at the tip is very small during the time of contact with a pendulum stroke. Do you think that a piston stroke results in no vertical change at the tip during contact?

What are requirements of the cue movements during contact to be accurate and consistent with cue ball control? Can both a pendulum stroke or a piston stroke meet these requirements? There are plenty of players with both strokes to make the assessment that they both meet the requirements.
 
MSchaffer said:
I'm not really sure what the point behind your question is, as even though you say your stroke is "simple, very simple", I would bet it looks much more like a pendulum than a piston.

I think Neil is correct...the small amount the arcs travel is virtually negligible, and results in a straight line at the bottom, but if you still are looking for a "biomechanical" description of how a circle (or arc) can have a staright line as a component...it can't. And you already know that. But considering the small amount the arc translates on the vertical axis, I would surmise that a combination of wrist movement, grip pressure, and simple 'cushion' of the fingers would allow for unconscious (or is it subconscious?) correction to at least the point of negligibility of outcome.
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Thank you Sir for your input.

You have touched on a couple of issues. Part of my concern & why I am asking the question is that in a full 'pendulum' stroke even though the tip is only traveling probably less than 24 inches in total from the set position to the finish position it is going through an arc going back & an a arc coming forward & then turning over into an arc in a different direction. That is a significant amount of down, up, & back down when trying to put a 3 millimeter tip patch on a certain spot on a cue ball.

It has been said that it travels in a straight line for two(2) or more inches. All I was asking is what biomechanical mechanism would allow for that. You have offered a few suggestions for consideration.

I would think that instructors teaching such a stroke & making that type of statement would have a specific answer.

Personally, I do not see any one of your suggestions being sufficient enough to get the tip moving straight for two(2) or more inches during that process when the hand is swinging down & then up in a circular motion & the center of the radius is perfectly stationary, especially with a 'craddle' grip connection to the cue stick.

I disagree with the statement that the distance of the arc being negligible as we are talking about single digit millimeters on the low end. I know what a difference 2 or 3 millimeters of offset in a golf club can make.

I have suggested that some wrist action might account for some flattening out of the arc but it would take some coordination & timing of that wrist action. In fact it would have to be cocked to shorten the radius at the set postion & the uncock in the back stroke to lengthen the radius & then cock again to shorten the radius before uncocking again to lengthen the radius. That is if the center of the radius remains fixed & stationary & the cue sits in a 'craddle' at the end of the radius.

I thank you again for your input & your attempt to answer my question.

Regards,
 
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I use a lose grip and my cue rolls on to my back fingers (lower) during the stroke. I am cofortable that with:
1) bridge 8-10"
2) CB strike center ball (we are talking straight not level)

I do achieve (sometimes) several inches of straight line cue action.

Bert
 
English, it's not that we can't answer it, it's more of a desire not to answer it. You say you play pool....how hard is it for you to try one shot with a pendulum stroke and get the obvious answer yourself? It's not. Which leaves only one conclusion...you don't really want the answer, you just want to discredit what instructors teach. Same 'ol, same 'ol. Why not just ask how can you get the cue to go level when your arm is dropping??
 
Mark Avlon said:
When considering arcs and tangents, then the the straight line movement would only be when the cue is tangent to the arc. That's the basis for your argument, and that's fine. No arguments from me.

The thing is that with a pendulum stroke the vertical change at the tip is very small during the time of contact with a pendulum stroke. Do you think that a piston stroke results in no vertical change at the tip during contact?
Obviously if the cue is angled down & the tip is moving on that straight line then there would be some elevation change but it would be less than if the tip is arcing down because the butt end is being raised when the straight line butt is moving directly behind the straight line travel of the tip. Was that question intended as a trap. Why is it when one asks a question that no one seems to be able to answer or does not want to answer the question, they ask trapping questions?

What are requirements of the cue movements during contact to be accurate and consistent with cue ball control? Can both a pendulum stroke or a piston stroke meet these requirements? To answer this hypothetical question, the answer would be yes. Now honestly answer me this question. which one would seem to have have a more consistent chance of successfully hitting the intended spot on the cue ball. One approaching in a straight line or one that is approaching on an arc that will qucikly change to an arc in a different direction.There are plenty of players with both strokes to make the assessment that they both meet the requirements.
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Sir,

I was not looking for an arguement as to what stroke is better in whose opinion or easier to teach or learn or master. I was looking for some biomechanical support to the assertion that the tip moves straight for several inches in a pendulum stroke.

If the tip is movng in a straght line toward the intended point of contact well before contact & stays on the straight line movement well after contact with no divergence from that straight line then it would be reasonable to assume that the tip would have hit the intended point of contact.

If the tip is curving down below the intended contact point & then curving back up to near the height of that contact point & then curving back down below that contact point, it would seem to require a perfect set up & require perfect timing of all of that curved movement off of the level of the intended contact point to reasonably assume that the contact point was actually hit as intended.

I am not saying that a pendulum stroke can not hit the cue ball. An assertion was made & I don't see how it can happen. I was asking for support of the assertion.

You seem to agree with me that the tip does not move straight for several inches in a true 'pendulum' stroke.

We do not need to go into a 'drag out' of why one stroke might be more beneficial than another. That is for each individual to decide for themselves when they have all of the objective information regarding each.

We can discuss the biomechanics of each & what is more 'natural'. But I think that that is better done in a thread of it's own.

I appreciate your candor & my earlier comments were not directed to you personally. It was more of a general observation of my past experience here on AZB.

With Regards & Respect,
 
Neil said:
English, it's not that we can't answer it, it's more of a desire not to answer it. You say you play pool....how hard is it for you to try one shot with a pendulum stroke and get the obvious answer yourself? It's not. Which leaves only one conclusion...you don't really want the answer, you just want to discredit what instructors teach. Same 'ol, same 'ol. Why not just ask how can you get the cue to go level when your arm is dropping??
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Neil,

There you go again with your assumption that you are omniscient regarding me & my intentions.

Why do you (the plural you, as you said 'we') desire not to answer the question? I did not know that the singular you speak for 'everyone'.

Are 'you' hiding something?

What are your intentions?

To distract from the topic of the thread & throw it into a 'drag out' by making false accusations.

Let's see if you can stay on topic & not get personal.

I seriously doubt that you can.
 
ENGLISH! said:
If the tip is curving down below the intended contact point & then curving back up to near the height of that contact point & then curving back down below that contact point, it would seem to require a perfect set up & require perfect timing of all of that curved movement off of the level of the intended contact point to reasonably assume that the contact point was actually hit as intended.
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Timing isn't an issue with a proper set position. If you would take the time to get aligned in the set position with your tip a half inch from the cue ball and your forearm perpendicular to our cue, and then perform practice strokes, you might see that it is very easy to return the cue tip to the the intended contact point on the cue ball, time after time.

ENGLISH! said:
We do not need to go into a 'drag out' of why one stroke might be more beneficial than another. That is for each individual to decide for themselves when they have all of the objective information regarding each.
Click to expand...

I'm not claiming one to be better the other. What I've said is that students are able to learn a pendulum stroke in very short order, and there is a benefit to them from this. In no way have I suggested that they shouldn't try to learn a piston stroke exclusively or in addition to a pendulum stroke. The more options the player has, the better.

I agree with Neil's observation that you are looking to discredit instructors who teach the pendulum stroke. Your responses clearly indicate that you either don't read the posts carefully, or prefer to twist what was written in your attempts to discredit them. You have repeatedly done that with my posts.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Neil,

There you go again with your assumption that you are omniscient regarding me & my intentions.

Why do you (the plural you, as you said 'we') desire not to answer the question? I did not know that the singular you speak for 'everyone'.

Are 'you' hiding something?

What are your intentions?

To distract from the topic of the thread & throw it into a 'drag out' by making false accusations.

Let's see if you can stay on topic & not get personal.

I seriously doubt that you can.
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Rick, you're beating a dead horse. I have to admit I made a reply to this thread this afternoon and deleted it before posting as it just didn't seem worth it.

This weekend I was discussing cut induced throw with my father and he was not convinced. Then of course my son chimed in and the debate was on! Long story short was my dad got it in the end but closed with the thought that I was over analyzing it in his opinion. He even made a Bobby Clampett reference to reinforce his opinion. While I know he is wrong and that knowledge of cut induced throw is a key component to understanding pool, he made a good point about how over analysis can lead to poor performance in the long run (ex: Bobby Clampett).

As far as your quest about the pendulum stroke....

Try it! You might like it!

And even if you don't like it, you will gain a better understanding of it! I know I have....via RandyG and experimentation.

Ken

p.s. in regards to your golf reference - draw/fade = same swing but different setup to my students
 
Mark Avlon said:
Timing isn't an issue with a proper set position. If you would take the time to get aligned in the set position with your tip a half inch from the cue ball and your forearm perpendicular to our cue, and then perform practice strokes, you might see that it is very easy to return the cue tip to the the intended contact point on the cue ball, time after time.



I'm not claiming one to be better the other. What I've said is that students are able to learn a pendulum stroke in very short order, and there is a benefit to them from this. In no way have I suggested that they shouldn't try to learn a piston stroke exclusively or in addition to a pendulum stroke. The more options the player has, the better.

I agree with Neil's observation that you are looking to discredit instructors who teach the pendulum stroke. Your responses clearly indicate that you either don't read the posts carefully, or prefer to twist what was written in your attempts to discredit them. You have repeatedly done that with my posts.
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Sir,

As I said before I appreciate your honest candor. I agree with your 1st. paragraph.

I disagree with your 2nd. paragraph.

I am asking a question to find support for the assertion that the tip travels in a straight line two or more inches in a true pendulum stroke, It seems to me that you don't see it doing that.

All that is needed is a logical answer with some biomechanical support for that assertion.

It does not look like any will be forth coming so I will leave it to everyone to make their own determinations from that.

Regards,
 
Okie said:
Rick, you're beating a dead horse. I have to admit I made a reply to this thread this afternoon and deleted it before posting as it just didn't seem worth it.

This weekend I was discussing cut induced throw with my father and he was not convinced. Then of course my son chimed in and the debate was on! Long story short was my dad got it in the end but closed with the thought that I was over analyzing it in his opinion. He even made a Bobby Clampett reference to reinforce his opinion. While I know he is wrong and that knowledge of cut induced throw is a key component to understanding pool, he made a good point about how over analysis can lead to poor performance in the long run (ex: Bobby Clampett).

As far as your quest about the pendulum stroke....

Try it! You might like it!

And even if you don't like it, you will gain a better understanding of it! I know I have....via RandyG and experimentation.

Ken

p.s. in regards to your golf reference - draw/fade = same swing but different setup to my students
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Hi Ken,

Why is the horse dead? Whose horse was it & who killed the horse?:wink:

You just studied with randyG. What is you opinion on the subject & is there any biomechanics to support it?

As to the golf, agreed, it can be done with the same biomechanical swing & a different set up or it can be done with the same set up & a different routing of the biomechanics of one's swings.

A 15 year old boy that played golf against my son in high school could hit what ever shot you called out at the top of his swing. That was from the same set up. Different strokes for different folks.

Best Regards,
 
All I wanted was a simple answer to a question regarding some support for a statement made that I just don't see happening.

No real answer with any support has been offered.

Now...I am being attacked for asking the question.

I guess if I am lambasted into withdrawal the question will go away.

If I'm the only one interested in an answer then I guess the thread was a waste of time.

C'est la vie.
 
English,

I'm in no way a pendulum stroke advocate... I prefer the piston based upon my own results....

But the pendulum is a wee bit different than you are looking at it as....

Instead of a fixed rod holding the cue at a 90degree angle fixed... You actually have 2 rods attached to a joint that is flexible.....

The cue should be level and set for contact when the first rod or front of the forearm is perpendicular to the shot plane....

The hand transfers the cue from the front of the hand gripping it as the stroke swings thru contact to the back of the hand as the second rod/back of the forearm reaches perpendicular to the shot plane...

The front fingers relax thru contact to allow the cue to transfer and many times you will even note that they are completely off of the cue at the finish of the stroke....

My forearm is about 2 inches in width and the the width from the contact point of my pointer finger to the contact point on my pinky is about 3 inches....

The widths and the nature of the grip are what allows the cue to remain level thru several inches...

I honestly think that this is a nuance of the pendulum stroke that is overlooked... You will note that many of the instructors that teach the pendulum stroke also teach a loose grip... They just fail to go into the reason that a loose grip is a key to making the pendulum work.....

Maybe that will make sense of it...

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
English,

I'm in no way a pendulum stroke advocate... I prefer the piston based upon my own results....

But the pendulum is a wee bit different than you are looking at it as....

Instead of a fixed rod holding the cue at a 90degree angle fixed... You actually have 2 rods attached to a joint that is flexible.....

The cue should be level and set for contact when the first rod or front of the forearm is perpendicular to the shot plane....

The hand transfers the cue from the front of the hand gripping it as the stroke swings thru contact to the back of the hand as the second rod/back of the forearm reaches perpendicular to the shot plane...

The front fingers relax thru contact to allow the cue to transfer and many times you will even note that they are completely off of the cue at the finish of the stroke....

My forearm is about 2 inches in width and the the width from the contact point of my pointer finger to the contact point on my pinky is about 3 inches....

The widths and the nature of the grip are what allows the cue to remain level thru several inches...

I honestly think that this is a nuance of the pendulum stroke that is overlooked... You will note that many of the instructors that teach the pendulum stroke also teach a loose grip... They just fail to go into the reason that a loose grip is a key to making the pendulum work.....

Maybe that will make sense of it...

Chris
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Chris,

Thank you so much.

At least you have made an honest effort to explain some biomechanism that might allow some straight line tip travel.

I just read it once & will give it some thought.

At least you have provided me with some food for thought.

I think you are correct in the poor explanation of what & why they refer to a loose grip. Loose implies a lesser degree of pressure. What you have described is more of an 'open' grip.

Thanks again. I really do appreciate it. Where have you been for the last 11 months.
 
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During my stroke my cue is airborne at impact... it literally and regularly slides roughly 4 inches through my hand. I am fairly certain that the cue is moving perfectly straight for most of that time.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Chris,

Thank you so much.

At least you have made an honest effort to explain some biomechanism that might allow some straight line tip travel.

I just read it once & will give it some thought.

At least you have provided me with some food for thought.

I think you are correct in in the poor explanation of what & why they refer to a loose grip. Loose implies a lesser degree of pressure. What you have described is more of an 'open' grip.

Thanks again. I really do appreciate it. Where have you been for the last 11 months.
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OK, you have covered the stroke and the grip, anything else you want to complain about what the instructors teach? Go ahead, get it all out of system while you are at it.
 
Neil said:
OK, you have covered the stroke and the grip, anything else you want to complain about what the instructors teach? Go ahead, get it all out of system while you are at it.
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I nibbled. But I'm not biting.:wink:

You have a good evening.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Hi Ken,

Why is the horse dead? Whose horse was it & who killed the horse?:wink:

You just studied with randyG. What is you opinion on the subject & is there any biomechanics to support it?

As to the golf, agreed, it can be done with the same biomechanical swing & a different set up or it can be done with the same set up & a different routing of the biomechanics of one's swings.

A 15 year old boy that played golf against my son in high school could hit what ever shot you called out at the top of his swing. That was from the same set up. Different strokes for different folks.

Best Regards,
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I told you my thoughts on the pendulum stroke Rick. Try it! That is what I think you should do. Formulate your own opinion on it!

As far as golf...I can change my shot shape from the top as well. But I will be damned if I would choose to do it that way for the chili!

And yes...I am now a Certified PBIA Instructor. I hope I can learn as much about the game as RandyG has learned!

Cheers! Here's to an open mind!

Ken

p.s. On second thought...I used to be able to swing anyway I wanted. I don't think playing 2-3 times a year keeps a fella at the top of his game. :thumbup:
 
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