Are their "naturals" regarding aiming?

[CJ Wiley]

Best Post of the entire thread

Try pointing a gun just naturally at the target instead of using the sights or the scope.

How good would that work?

Some would be pretty good and some would be pretty bad.

Sounds like pool.

There is a natural sight for each and every shot when the eyes are right there. If you know where this is you can get down on a shot and they will all look good.

If the correct picture is getting to the brain the body has a chance to get it done.

If you don't see it right good luck.

Again, it's just like not using the sights on the gun.

Need I say more? Pretty simple.

Best Post of the entire thread.....and not to mention many players have "crooked barrels" (strokes) too. To hit the cue ball perfectly straight, even with no object ball involved is a "world class" accomplishment. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[BilliardsAbout]

There are aim systems that can help most players and at different skill levels.

A good teacher keeps several in his bag of tricks in case one fits a student better than another (although some teachers don't teach aim systems at all--it's too controversial).

The goal is to lock in aim until you get down on the ball in play (not practice) without an aim system at all--although again, for extreme cuts and etc. even top players have little tricks that they "systemize" in their games.

Here are some aim system overviews if you want to peruse them. Write me for more:

Aim Systems By Family

 

[duckie]

Try skeet or trap shooting where you have to lead the target.....nothing like shooting a rifle or pistol at a target that's not moving......

Some pick up this style of shooting easy and others never can.....

Some are naturals in that they just pick it up easier than others.

Oh there is nothing in common with shooting and pool......always bad to try to compare the two. There are no sights you can point to and touch such as the sights on a pistol in pool. System users and those that market such thing want you to believe there are "sights " used in pool when in reality, those "sights" only exist in your head, therefore there are no real aiming systems in pool.

There is only different visualization methods used in determining where you want to put the cb.

Oh it is real easy to learn to point and shoot, not using sights, just takes practice.....

 

[CJ Wiley]

They truly knew how to win, and that's the best system to learn. imo

Not a proper comparison. Keith lived at the poolroom. Find me any person who put in the same time as keith with the same influences and I guarantee you they are world class.

Yes, I know many road players that increased there playing ability by 2 or 3 levels with the influence of some of the greats like Weldon Rogers, Omaha John and Jack Cooney......Keith has been around and traveled with at least two of these players. They truly knew how to win, and that's the best system to learn. imo

 

[JB Cases]

If someone had a way to improve athleticism, hand eye coordination, etc, I'd be all ears. But suggesting that an aiming system is going to improve someones play I don't believe.

There is. Practice.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I suck at all sports. I have no talent, or hand eye coordination, or athleticism, whatever you want to call it. It is what it is. If I were to spend a year solid with an instructor, it wouldn't make a difference. I'd still lose to the same guys, and beat the same guys. I played softball for 10 years, and they always stuck me in right field where no one hit the ball cause I can't catch the ball.

Believe me, I've tried many things over the years. The only way I get better now is by learning a new shot or strategy. And that only bumps your speed very slightly.

If someone had a way to improve athleticism, hand eye coordination, etc, I'd be all ears. But suggesting that an aiming system is going to improve someones play I don't believe.

There is. Practice.<--Nice try John, (SJD)

Its like the tip debate. The pros use the full spectrum of tips available, and they all play jam up. Its not the tip. The amateur on the other hand thinks the tip might mean something. It means absolutely nothing. I feel the same way about aiming. So many interviews and articles have been around about pros and aiming. They all do different things, or don't even know what they do. Yet they all can make any shot. Just like any tip can make any shot.

Its not the tip, its not the aiming system (or non-system).

Those are my 3 cents

IUTBR,

I don't know if you know of me through Fast Lenny, or not..Anyway, I agree with your theory 100%...I come from the opposite end of the 'ability spectrum' that you say you are stuck in...I have challenged John Barton, JoeyA, (and many others) many times over their obsession with 'aiming systems'...They may even blame me for getting "Aiming Systems" moved to its own "Flaming Area", to UNCLOG the main forum..! (You're welcome !)

My age (79) has moved me well beyond my prime, but John and JoeyA are both aware of how I played, when I was at my peak, (19-20) and well beyond....You are the first person of average ability, I've run across that has the insight to realize that there is NOT, nor ever was, a 'magic bullet' for learning how to play pool..One small tip, give up trying to convince John or Joey of that..they jump on every new 'system' as if this MUST be the one that will make them a perfect player. (those two have spent more time practicing, 'aiming system's, than Fat's and Mosconi ever spent playing pool !!!)

We kid around a lot, but they know my take on 'aiming systems'...There are 'nice guys', and there are also a few 'not so nice guys' who prey on the "C" players, who will NEVER be "A" players, in their lifetime !..For every guy like you, there are 10,000 more, who think they can 'learn', via instruction's or system's...The game of Pool, can be a cruel "TEACHER"...The nice guys are harmless..They sincerely think their 'methods' are infallable, and they mean well..But it can be almost impossible to tell them from the 'not so nice' guys...Old Hal Houle created a real mess, didn't he..and even HE still can't explain it !!! ...Can someone please explain to me, how it can be BETTER to aim at a ball you can't even see, (AKA,Ghost Ball) than just trying to hit the ball at the proper contact point ?..Some of those diagrams, are drawn up by another bunch of nice guy's, (however they appear to be frustrated 'engineer's)...can be downright scary, can't they ?

For every world class player, that relies on an 'aiming system', there are untold hundreds that don't...And chances are pretty good, the ones that do, would be (or were) very upper class players without it !.. (Stevie Moore comes to mind)

Dick Mc Morran (aka SJD)

 

[JB Cases]

IUTBR,

I don't know if you know of me through Fast Lenny, or not..Anyway, I agree with your theory 100%...I come from the opposite end of the 'ability spectrum' that you say you are stuck in...I have challenged John Barton, JoeyA, (and many others) many times over their obsession with 'aiming systems'...They may even blame me for getting "Aiming Systems" moved to its own "Flaming Area", to UNCLOG the main forum..! (You're welcome !)

My age (79) has moved me well beyond my prime, but John and JoeyA are both aware of how I played, when I was at my peak, (19-20) and well beyond....You are the first person of average ability, I've run across that has the insight to realize that there is NOT, nor ever was, a 'magic bullet' for learning how to play pool..One small tip, give up trying to convince John or Joey of that..they jump on every new 'system' as if this MUST be the one that will make them a perfect player. (those two have spent more time practicing, 'aiming system's, than Fat's and Mosconi ever spent playing pool !!!)

We kid around a lot, but they know my take on 'aiming systems'...There are 'nice guys', and there are also a few 'not so nice guys' who prey on the "C" players, who will NEVER be "A" players, in their lifetime !..For every guy like you, there are 10,000 guys who think they can 'learn', via instruction's or system's...The game of Pool, can be a cruel "TEACHER"...The nice guys are harmless..They sincerely think their 'methods' are infallable, and they mean well..But it can be almost impossible to tell them from the 'not so nice' guys...Old Hal Houle created a real mess, didn't he..and even HE still can't explain it !!! ...Can someone please explain to me, how it can be BETTER to aim at a ball you can't even see, (AKA,Ghost Ball) than just trying to hit the ball at the proper contact point ?..Some of those diagrams, which are drawn up by another bunch of nice guy's, (however they appear to be frustrated 'engineer's) can be downright scary, can't they ?

For every world class player, that relies on an 'aiming system', there are untold hundreds that don't...And chances are pretty good, the ones that do, would be (or were) very upper class players without it !.. (Stevie Moore comes to mind)

Dick Mc Morran (aka SJD)

You are completely wrong about me.

100% wrong.

Prior to meeting Hal Houle I believed just like you that it's all natural ability, some have it some don't. I thought that aiming is something you either just see or you don't and therefore if you don't go find another hobby.

In fact I didn't even WANT to meet Hal or spend any time with him because I thought I had it all figured out. I thought that aiming systems were kooky but not to the point that I was on the forums arguing that point, I simply was not interested in discussing them one way or the other. I thought GB as a starter and then table time after that were the only thing anyone could possibly need.

You and others keep saying things like "magic bullet" but that's not it at all. It's simply that Hal and others discovered alternative ways to look at the shot that work and they work well. You act as though guys like me are looking for some magic bullet to make them a world beater and at least for me that is the farthest thing from the truth. But you can't tell me that players at world class level don't sometimes put some thought into the how and why they do things and try to find methods that they can rely on to be even more consistent. You know why you can't tell me that? Because I have sat with top players and asked them directly what they see and how they approach the shot.

Before Hal I would never have asked them because I thought everyone just did it by feel. But it turns out that the things players do, which they may not be broadcasting, run a full range. Some of it doesn't make geometric sense but it works as a visual aid.

In all sports there are methods and techniques that have been developed that are way different than the "old school" methods. It's NOT all simply a matter of whether you are born with it or not. It's romantic to believe that but it's simply not what the research shows.

Yes you played great and were considered one of the top road men. But if Lassiter or Squirrel or one of your contemporaries would have said that they have a little thing they do when aiming would you have told them off or would you have listened?

I mean even after I met Hal I still thought that it can't be true. I asked top players what they do to aim because I wanted to know if ANYONE did anything similar to what Hal was teaching. Especially since he was naming players and saying that they did this or that.

I found out that sure enough players were using similar methods and other methods not taught in books. It was like going through a door to find another world that I didn't know existed.

Is it a magic bullet when Buddy Hall says to me while driving down the highway that he sees the shot a certain way that's not "in the book"? Is it a magic bullet when Rodney Morris tells me that he was taught in Hawaii to aim at portions of the ball? Is it a magic bullet when a road player who ran with Scotty Townsend and Buddy and everyone from the south tells me to use my ferrule to aim with?

Why on earth would I not listen to these guys and what they have to say about playing pool?

Now with CJ here he is telling us all what he does? Is he a liar? Is he a con artist? I mean he plays at least as well as you did I think. So who should we believe, one great player who says it's all feel and whether you are born with it or another great player who says it's systematic and can be trained?

It's simply two camps and the two will never meet. But the research, science, shows clearly that every great performer in history has had tons of training and tons of experience backing their skill.

If you're right then tell me one player who went from never having picked up a cue to world beater in a year? Tell me who they played and beat in that first year, for how much and who can confirm it? Because if you're right there must be many players who were "born with it" who "just see it" and thus advance into world beater status within a year or two of picking up a cue.

Regarding hand-eye coordination, yes there are people who are better than other people.

BUT

Again research shows that skill can be improved DRAMATICALLY by practice to the point where the intially "bad" athletes become as good or better than those who were better earlier.

Being better at something at one point compared to another person does not mean you will ALWAYS be better than them at that task. That's not how it works.

There are too many variables involved. Experience, exposure to knowledge, desire, dedication, motivation.

I mean I am 45. Right now I suck. I would be a good example right now of someone who you would say does not "have it". Someone who has plateaued and will never get better.

Would anyone on this forum be willing to bet me that within 12 months from today I will beat the 9 ball ghost ten ahead?

$1000.

I do not think that there is one person on this forum who is willing to BET that I can't do it. Because in your hearts you know for a fact that it's all about training and dedication. You know it's not about whether a person is "born with it or not".

But if you truly feel differently then feel free to bet it and we will see if I can't prove my own belief on this subject and raise my skill level considerably in 12 months, while at the same working and doing shows.

 

[JB Cases]

Improving Hand-Eye Coordination

Google is the greatest tool ever invented for knowledge acquisition.

https://www.google.com/#output=sear...87,d.dGI&fp=6f6c558e89facf72&biw=1138&bih=532

Sometimes when I want to make a statement like, I wish there was a way to do x then I will look it up on Google to see what the rest of the planet thinks about my thought. Turns out that on this ball with 7 billion+ of us other people have also thought about it and found answers.

So here you go, improve your hand-eye-coordination.

And if you want to improve your athleticism, get in shape, get flexible, then train, hard. From a former springboard diver who was a book-geek before getting on a diving board. All of my middle school pictures said "nerd" and no one then would have believed I would have competed and performed all over the world. They certainly would never have pictured me 100ft above the earth about to do a double somersault into an 18ft pool only 9ft deep.

 

[JB Cases]

Video Games

Playing action and sports video games can also sharpen visual perception and motor skills. The coordination of eye and hand movements required by some games might even be greater than that of other activities, such as actually playing the game of baseball.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/337800-exercises-to-improve-hand-eye-coordination/#ixzz2SZb9Qfgv

-

"but can you make any money playing Stocker?"

"Tell you what I can do with Stocker, in ten years I could get into West Point with Stocker, that's what I could do, it's all coming down to video game reflexes....."

 

[SJDinPHX]

Video Games

Playing action and sports video games can also sharpen visual perception and motor skills. The coordination of eye and hand movements required by some games might even be greater than that of other activities, such as actually playing the game of baseball.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/337800-exercises-to-improve-hand-eye-coordination/#ixzz2SZb9Qfgv

-

"but can you make any money playing Stocker?"

"Tell you what I can do with Stocker, in ten years I could get into West Point with Stocker, that's what I could do, it's all coming down to video game reflexes....."

I'm sorry John, but we are only drifting further apart..I will not insult your intelligence, as I think your IQ is probably much higher than mine, but you have entered into an area, that I simply cannot accept. It is ludicrous to assume, that there is the slightest comparison, between becoming proficient at playing 'video games', and playing top level pool.. I can certainly see you describing yourself as 'nerdish', because you do tend to READ yourself into a coma, when the subject interests you.

I commend you for attaining a high level of skill as a high diver.. But there again, where is the slightest correlation to becoming highly proficient at pool...As you well know Bowling, golf, most track events, (yes even diving) are NON-COMPETITIVE games/sports, in that you, and you alone, are responsible for what YOU do on the field of play... No comparison to games like tennis, racquet ball, or any of the contact sports...where your opponent is physically involved in preventing you from scoring.

Pool is similar to bowling and golf, with the exception of strategic safety play, which DOES affect your turn at the table considerably..But, your opponent cannot 'grab' your stick..any more than you can kick your golfing buddies ball under a tree, or trip a bowler on his approach. (Sharking in pool, does seem to be tolerated though)

I point out this distinction, only to emphasize the difference, in the game of pool !..It is what makes it such a unique, challenging, and difficult game to master..Throw in 'squirt', 'swerve' 'CID spin', wet or dry conditions, table size, pocket size, and several other factors, and it is a small wonder ANYONE even attempts to master the game, to the pro level. It must take either a LOT of perserverance, or as I contend, a LOT of natural talent..However, I do often wonder why everybody couldn't/can't, hit a baseball as far as Babe Ruth ?...Surely there are expert batting coaches, aren't there ?

I also know, for a fact, that the number of 'healthy' physically fit, top notch players I have encountered, are too few to mention..A steady diet of booze, hot dogs, and an occasional pharmacutical, were the norm..Not saying that couldn't have been improved on, but none of us planned on diving 100 ft., into a tub of water ! wink

Was a little bored tonight, and had a few cocktails, (hence, the length of this post)...Just wanted to let you know, that your exciting NEW arguments, have only served to re-enforce, what I knew all along ! You need to stop believing everything you read on the internet !..By the way, wheres m'bud JoeyA, who is his newest "Aiming System Idol" du joir ?

Later,

SJD

 

[JB Cases]

I'm sorry John, but we are only drifting further apart..I will not insult your intelligence, as I think your IQ is probably much higher than mine, but you have entered into an area, that I simply cannot accept. It is ludicrous to assume, that there is the slightest comparison, between becoming proficient at playing 'video games', and playing top level pool.. I can certainly see you describing yourself as 'nerdish', because you do tend to READ yourself into a coma, when the subject interests you.

I commend you for attaining a high level of skill as a high diver.. But there again, where is the slightest correlation to becoming highly proficient at pool...As you well know Bowling, golf, most track events, (yes even diving) are NON-COMPETITIVE games/sports, in that you, and you alone, are responsible for what YOU do on the field of play... No comparison to games like tennis, racquet ball, or any of the contact sports...where your opponent is physically involved in preventing you from scoring.

Pool is similar to bowling and golf, with the exception of strategic safety play, which DOES affect your turn at the table considerably..But, your opponent cannot 'grab' your stick..any more than you can kick your golfing buddies ball under a tree, or trip a bowler on his approach. (Sharking in pool, does seem to be tolerated though)

I point out this distinction, only to emphasize the difference, in the game of pool !..It is what makes it such a unique, challenging, and difficult game to master..Throw in 'squirt', 'swerve' 'CID spin', wet or dry conditions, table size, pocket size, and several other factors, and it is a small wonder ANYONE even attempts to master the game, to the pro level. It must take either a LOT of perserverance, or as I contend, a LOT of natural talent..However, I do often wonder why everybody couldn't/can't, hit a baseball as far as Babe Ruth ?...Surely there are expert batting coaches, aren't there ?

I also know, for a fact, that the number of 'healthy' physically fit, top notch players I have encountered, are too few to mention..A steady diet of booze, hot dogs, and an occasional pharmacutical, were the norm..Not saying that couldn't have been improved on, but none of us planned on diving 100 ft., into a tub of water ! wink

Was a little bored tonight, and had a few cocktails, (hence, the length of this post)...Just wanted to let you know, that your exciting NEW arguments, have only served to re-enforce, what I knew all along ! You need to stop believing everything you read on the internet !..By the way, wheres m'bud JoeyA, who is his newest "Aiming System Idol" du joir ?

Later,

SJD

The question was can someone improve their hand-eye coordination and the answer to that is yes. Many techniques have been discovered which allow any person to improve their hand-eye coordination.

I didn't say improve into being a champion.

To me a champion isn't about skill so much as it is about heart. Take the current top 20 players in the world ranked based on titles they have won. Is there any shot that the #1 player knows that the #20 player does not or could not learn in minutes?

I don't think so. I think champions are champions because they are able to bring all the skill they know to bear under pressure. That's the acid test really. We have all seen the weaker player with more heart beat the better player who dogs it. I am the "better" player who dogs it.

I think that what keeps the #20 player at 20 is that statisically he makes more unforced errors than the guy at #1.

When that #20 player plays a weaker player he might shoot as good as the #1 player for hours because there is no pressure. Change the opponent to the #1 player and now the heat is on and this is where the difference in unforced errors shows up.

What does all this mean for all the amateurs here? Only that they all sit squarely in the center between really terrible beginner and world beater and they can go in either direction. How far they go depends on them and not a "pool gene". On this we will probably disagree but science shows otherwise. Nearly every great champion did more than their peers.

Now, Babe Ruth, he had a great coach in high school that he idolized, he was a big man and base ball was much easier in his day. He probably had great hand-eye coordination and that coupled with encouragement and support and training made him a great star. And, he reportedly had a ton of heart.

Now, what does heart mean and where does it come from?

Well, now THIS is something that some people are born with because people have different brains. If parts of your brain work in certain ways your body reacts differently to stimulus.

BUT

It's been proven that even people whose brains don't naturally allow them to react the optimal way to stimulus can train themselves to react the right way and their brain scans then look nearly identical to the ones who naturally react the "right" way. Thus heart can be trained as well.

Wouldn't it be freaking cool if in the next 50 years all pool players were Efren's speed or better? Woudn't it be great if we are able to unlock the secrets of our brain and then whatever we turn our desire to we excel at it?

I understand your old-school position but I think you are ignoring all the new-school science behind my assertions.

Anyway, here is a guy who started out knowing nothing about golf who is trying to see if he can make the PGA after 10,000 hours of deliberate practice, http://thedanplan.com/4k_hours/

Have a good night, wish I was there to share your booze and argue this in person ;-)

 

[SJDinPHX]

blah. blah, blah !

I see we have bogged down again, with our completely different views of reality...Anyway, it would be kinda OK to share a drink and slug it out in person someday. (we may need the 'glove's' )

Anyway, here is a little something you (or any AZer that cares) may find interesting...It is a kind of eulogy I wrote for Ronnie Allen when he died !...John Henderson published it in his 'Cue Sports Journal'..(a West coast publication only) so few have seen it....We were closer than a lot of people knew...Later, Dick

I tried to furnish a link, but couldn't..So here it is, in longhand !


I would like to share a few my experiences, of over fifty years, with
someone who needs no introduction. Anyone whose ever been in a pool
room, or around high dollar gambling at pool will know the name... the
late, Ronnie "Fast Eddie" Allen.

I am not, by any stretch, a George Fel's, or Walter Tevis,or any other
'pool author' for that matter, but they could never do enough
research, to know the personal side of him, as I got to know it.. So,
as I was unable to attend his funeral, I'm going to give it my best
shot..Maybe call it a sort of belated eulogy to my old friend.

If you are looking for information re; his birthplace, wedding date,
children's birthday's, tournament victories, etc...I suggest you
Google him, Its all there, and in much more accurate detail, than I
could ever recall, even though I know (or knew) most of it, at one
time or another. If you need to know what was the most money he ever
played for, or won or lost..It gets a little tougher..He's in a place
now, where he can throw out any number he wants to..Which he did all
his life anyway.

What I would like to share most with you all, is what really made
Ronnie tick,(IMO) and to examine what this unique individual brought
to my life, and many others..He is without a doubt, the most
unforgettable character I've ever met... He is the 'poster boy' for
people who, you just knew...whatever path he chose in his life, he
would have been really damn good at it !..

Ronnie (or RA as most of us called him) could have made a fortune. as
a high level salesman, I can see him moving big ticket item's, like
hi-dollar homes, yachts, exotic car's, or anything else for that
matter. Or, how about a 'politician' ?..Boggles the mind, doesn't it ?
...Ronnie could have reversed that old saying..He could have sold "an
Eskimo, to a Refigerator" !

He could think just as fast on his feet or had the "gift of gab" that
W.C. Fields, or Johnny Carson might well have envied... Had he
cultivated his business acumen, He might have bested Donald
Trump, in some big deal..But, he prefered to spend his time, analyzing
'racing forms'.
In any event, RA chose to be a "pool hustler" in every sense of the word, or
maybe it chose him...who knows, ?...He was 'Action Driven' and he became
so successful at it, at such an early age, I guess that was all he
ever wanted to be,..except for maybe owning a few race horse's, a
racetrack,..or a Golf course !...I think he could have easily handled
those demanding endeavor's, but having chose the life he did, there
would never be enough money, to get him even a start in that
direction, no matter how good he played... By the time he reached
middle age, I'm quite sure he realized, those dreams had slipped away.

Having reached an age, where I've forgotten, way more than I can
remember, most of my time spent with him, was pretty easy to
recall...The "war stories" I was involved with Ronnie, would fill a
book, which I would like to write someday...But for this effort, I'll
be keeping it kind of low key.

Like the time we went drinking, (with a few other scuff's) in the
North Beach area, of San Francisco. We were taking a break and were
mostly checking out the strip joints..But you could not go anywhere
there was a pool table, that RA would not try to stir something
up...Sure enough, he captured a live one, with his patented 'come-on',
and the guy hustled HIM, to play a game of 8 ball, for 50 bucks ('1960's
$$)
...We were sweating it, and it was obvious the guy was a drunk
beginner !..RA was nursing him along just right..'til it came time to
make the 8 ball..RA easily knocked it in, got a freak, 8" roll-off,
and scratched.. He muttered, (under his breath)..."Dumb f-ing
Okie"...threw a C-note on the table, and reached for a quarter to rack
for another game..The place was packed..The 'sucker' says "thats all I
got myself, is 100's but my girl has some change". The guy wanders
off, Ronnie is watching him like a hawk, when a big bouncer, walks up,
and turns off the light and says, "No gambling in here"
Ronnie goes into his pleading act with the bouncer, to no avail, worse
yet, he loses sight of the guy, who disappeared never to return with
his $50 change !

It was kinda funny, but RA was really pissed..He spent the ride back
to Cochran's, trying to convince us, we should all share in his
loss..(no luck there either)..It was a rare occurance that, that
'sucker' was able to outmove the king of the 'mover's.

It was usually much more enjoyable, in a crowded pool room, especially
if you happened to be in with Ronnie. It was fun to watch him 'work
the room'...Here is an excerpt from Alf Taylor's great pool book, "The
Other Side of the Road"...Alfie has been around the block, and here is
how he described his first glimpse of Ronnie, at Johnston City, years
ago...

"His aggressive style of play, his uncanny knowledge of the game of
One Pocket, and his precision control in tight spots around the stack
made him a threat to run out anytime he got to the table...Ronnie had
a charismatic way of controlling his game, his opponent's game, his
backer, his opponent's backer, and the audience. He looked good,
talked fast and right in people's faces, and he backed it up with his
awesome play. I WANTED TO BE HIM."

I learned the game of one pocket from him. (trial by fire,..crash
courses, and often costly)..We played hundreds of times, in almost as
many different ways !...But there was no learning his 'people
management skills', or his comedic delivery of them...I really think,
that early on, some of my friends would go in with me, or stake me,
just to get to watch his act...Win or lose, he put on an 'academy
award' performance every time !
Many of his victim's called it "sharking"..but I grew so accustomed to
it, I couldn't make a ball if he WASN'T bouncing around, and
chattering.

Before the internet, and cell phones, I used to steer him around the
bay area.. As I was a 'known criminal' myself, we had to play it kind
of "cloak and dagger" style..I'd send him into an action joint, on his
own, and I would say about 90% of the time,If he didn't get
knocked...he'd get 'em all stirred up, and get the right guy down..I
spent lots of boring hours, drinking in the nearest bar, waiting for
the outcome.

I watched his health deteriorate, at a much faster rate than mine, and
his 'primetime' slipped away quite rapidly..When he was around, we
began to spend more time drinking, and less time playing...But his
attitude never changed...He was always on the alert for action, and
could still put on a hell of a show for the folk's...It's obvious
Ronnie never lived his life, like an "athlete in training"...but, its
still a rotten shame his tired old body gave out on him, WAY before
his love for action did !

In closing, I guess this is the point where I'm supposed to say "RIP
old friend"..But, I know, wherever he is, 'resting in peace' is NOT his
style !.. Wherever he is, he'd be pacing around, wanting to be
doing his thing, creating action, and matching up !...So lets just
say.."Catch ya' later big guy, it was a real treat knowing you" !

'San Jose Dick' McMorran,

 

[stan shuffett]

I'm sorry John, but we are only drifting further apart..I will not insult your intelligence, as I think your IQ is probably much higher than mine, but you have entered into an area, that I simply cannot accept. It is ludicrous to assume, that there is the slightest comparison, between becoming proficient at playing 'video games', and playing top level pool.. I can certainly see you describing yourself as 'nerdish', because you do tend to READ yourself into a coma, when the subject interests you.

I commend you for attaining a high level of skill as a high diver.. But there again, where is the slightest correlation to becoming highly proficient at pool...As you well know Bowling, golf, most track events, (yes even diving) are NON-COMPETITIVE games/sports, in that you, and you alone, are responsible for what YOU do on the field of play... No comparison to games like tennis, racquet ball, or any of the contact sports...where your opponent is physically involved in preventing you from scoring.

Pool is similar to bowling and golf, with the exception of strategic safety play, which DOES affect your turn at the table considerably..But, your opponent cannot 'grab' your stick..any more than you can kick your golfing buddies ball under a tree, or trip a bowler on his approach. (Sharking in pool, does seem to be tolerated though)

I point out this distinction, only to emphasize the difference, in the game of pool !..It is what makes it such a unique, challenging, and difficult game to master..Throw in 'squirt', 'swerve' 'CID spin', wet or dry conditions, table size, pocket size, and several other factors, and it is a small wonder ANYONE even attempts to master the game, to the pro level. It must take either a LOT of perserverance, or as I contend, a LOT of natural talent..However, I do often wonder why everybody couldn't/can't, hit a baseball as far as Babe Ruth ?...Surely there are expert batting coaches, aren't there ?

I also know, for a fact, that the number of 'healthy' physically fit, top notch players I have encountered, are too few to mention..A steady diet of booze, hot dogs, and an occasional pharmacutical, were the norm..Not saying that couldn't have been improved on, but none of us planned on diving 100 ft., into a tub of water ! wink

Was a little bored tonight, and had a few cocktails, (hence, the length of this post)...Just wanted to let you know, that your exciting NEW arguments, have only served to re-enforce, what I knew all along ! You need to stop believing everything you read on the internet !..By the way, wheres m'bud JoeyA, who is his newest "Aiming System Idol" du joir ?

Later,

SJD

If it were possible to analyze the exact way you once visually and physically approached each shot, you'd likely be okay with that and would not ridicule yourself for what you did.

You clearly do not understand CTE because you SURELY were shooting in that manner but you did it blindly. CTE PRO ONE is actually a set of objective instructions that explain what many of the greats of yesteryear did such as you and I will throw in Jimmy Caras for good measure.

You can take it for what it is worth but I know and can explain to a large degree exactly how you aimed.

Here's the hurdle. You think that can't be. Well, it is and in the future many great players will aim just as you did but just not blindly. They will understand the visual/physical nature of aiming and new heights in play will be reached because of it.

DVD2 and time will prove this out.

Thank you for your past greatness at playing. It is precisely because of players like you that this was all unravelled.

As I said, this will be understood in time. Makers' Mark my word on it.

Stan Shuffett

 

[SJDinPHX]

If it were possible to analyze the exact way you once visually and physically approached each shot, you'd likely be okay with that and would not ridicule yourself for what you did.

You clearly do not understand CTE because you SURELY were shooting in that manner but you did it blindly. CTE PRO ONE is actually a set of objective instructions that explain what many of the greats of yesteryear did such as you and I will throw in Jimmy Caras for good measure.

You can take it for what it is worth but I know and can explain to a large degree exactly how you aimed.

Here's the hurdle. You think that can't be. Well, it is and in the future many great players will aim just as you did but just not blindly. They will understand the visual/physical nature of aiming and new heights in play will be reached because of it.

DVD2 and time will prove this out.

Thank you for your past greatness at playing. It is precisely because of players like you that this was all unravelled.

As I said, this will be understood in time. Makers' Mark my word on it.

Stan Shuffett

Thank you for your gracious response Stan..You are certainly one of the 'good guy's' I was refering to !....As for an eye opening experience, I'm afraid I will always be an "Old Dog, New Tricks" kind of guy... Besides, I would rather hang by my thumb's, 'til dead, than admit JohnB, or JoeyA, were anywhere near right, about anything on this subject !

Cheers

SJD

 

[LAMas]

IUTBR,

I don't know if you know of me through Fast Lenny, or not..Anyway, I agree with your theory 100%...I come from the opposite end of the 'ability spectrum' that you say you are stuck in...I have challenged John Barton, JoeyA, (and many others) many times over their obsession with 'aiming systems'...They may even blame me for getting "Aiming Systems" moved to its own "Flaming Area", to UNCLOG the main forum..! (You're welcome !)

My age (79) has moved me well beyond my prime, but John and JoeyA are both aware of how I played, when I was at my peak, (19-20) and well beyond....You are the first person of average ability, I've run across that has the insight to realize that there is NOT, nor ever was, a 'magic bullet' for learning how to play pool..One small tip, give up trying to convince John or Joey of that..they jump on every new 'system' as if this MUST be the one that will make them a perfect player. (those two have spent more time practicing, 'aiming system's, than Fat's and Mosconi ever spent playing pool !!!)

We kid around a lot, but they know my take on 'aiming systems'...There are 'nice guys', and there are also a few 'not so nice guys' who prey on the "C" players, who will NEVER be "A" players, in their lifetime !..For every guy like you, there are 10,000 guys who think they can 'learn', via instruction's or system's...The game of Pool, can be a cruel "TEACHER"...The nice guys are harmless..They sincerely think their 'methods' are infallable, and they mean well..But it can be almost impossible to tell them from the 'not so nice' guys...Old Hal Houle created a real mess, didn't he..and even HE still can't explain it !!! ...Can someone please explain to me, how it can be BETTER to aim at a ball you can't even see, (AKA,Ghost Ball) than just trying to hit the ball at the proper contact point ?..Some of those diagrams, which are drawn up by another bunch of nice guy's, (however they appear to be frustrated 'engineer's) can be downright scary, can't they ?

For every world class player, that relies on an 'aiming system', there are untold hundreds that don't...And chances are pretty good, the ones that do, would be (or were) very upper class players without it !.. (Stevie Moore comes to mind)

Dick Mc Morran (aka SJD)

What ever are you talking about



:wink:

 

[plhlolelnlilx]

I actually have to agree with John on this one. Video games can not only require an extreme amount of hand eye coordination but also improve whatever ability you do have. I've played tons of sports but ultimately Hockey and Billiards were the two I was drawn to.

Your ability to improve your coordination is going to be directly linked to your drive to be better. Some may learn more quickly than you or perceive things differently; but like anything else, you will get better in direct relation to the effort you put in.

Start by getting three golf balls and juggle in a simple over under pattern until you feel comfortable. I know this sounds ridiculous but you can do this anywhere and thank goodness for you there are no video games involved.

Next get a ball about the size of a baseball or softball and lay on your back. Throw it up and catch with the same hand. Your goal will be to watch the ball arch and to not be reaching all over to try and grab it. The ball should be coming at your face or the hand it was thrown from.

Everything I've been involved in required an unbelievable amount of determination. The worse I preformed, the more I practiced and when everyone else had gone home, I was still there shooting until my arms couldn't move anymore.

 

[backplaying]

lol. Yep, I go through life sad every day cause I suck at pool. lol.

By your logic everyone is limitless, and all the C players would turn into A players, then Pros, then Efren speed. Yep, all it takes is instruction or an aiming system. Yep, I buy all that. Yep, all the middle speed pros like a Bartram just never tried hard enough or had the right coach to reach the top. Yep, all the C players in the pool halls who played night and day for 10 years straight gambling their brains out against A players just never had the right aiming system. Yep, thats what it is. Or take it to an acedemic level, the not so book smart kid who's parents buy him private math tutors, and he studies and studies and does his homework and still barely manages a C in math class. Yep, all that kid is missing is the right teacher. Yes, you are right.

Like I said in my first or second post in this thread, its the age old nature versus nurture debate. Its been argued for thousands of years. There will be no resolution to in in this thread. This thread is just an exercise in futility, same old arguments, even have banned members in it arguing.

And so the beat goes on.

I think you fully understand not just pool but how life really works. Funny how some can't accept honesty. I guess it's tough for some to admit it takes natural talent to excel in anything. Its just natural for people to believe they can accomplish anything, regardless of reality. The majority has to believe in equality, even though its a fairytale.

 

[JB Cases]

I think you fully understand not just pool but how life really works. Funny how some can't accept honesty. I guess it's tough for some to admit it takes natural talent to excel in anything. Its just natural for people to believe they can accomplish anything, regardless of reality. The majority has to believe in equality, even though its a fairytale.

Even more funny is the more people THINK that know how life works the more they are proven wrong.

What the majority of people thought was natural in 1890 is not how people think today. And in 100 years when science has completely unlocked the chemistry and wiring of the brain what you call natural talent today will be available to everyone on demand.

People will learn faster and deeper about any subject they desire to know. They will excel in any activity they are physically capable of mastering.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I believe there's a possibility both are infinite.

Even more funny is the more people THINK that know how life works the more they are proven wrong.

What the majority of people thought was natural in 1890 is not how people think today. And in 100 years when science has completely unlocked the chemistry and wiring of the brain what you call natural talent today will be available to everyone on demand.

People will learn faster and deeper about any subject they desire to know. They will excel in any activity they are physically capable of mastering.

I somehow doubt "science" will every completely unlock the mysteries of how the mind works. The subconscious is plugged into sources that may be so deep in "Inner Space" that science will never reach it.

There's "Outer Space" and there's "Inner Space".....I believe there's a possibility both are infinite. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[mista335]

View attachment 275102

Wow! After 6 Jack Daniels that's *exactly* what I see.