Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - all that is great information. Uh, let me ask you this.... how many cues did you say that you have made thus far?
The test wood was Ponderosa pine: are there any cue makers out there using "Ponderosa Pine"?
Schedule for shaft wood.
- Thread starter seahorse1877
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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - all that is great information. Uh, let me ask you this.... how many cues did you say that you have made thus far?
The test wood was Ponderosa pine: are there any cue makers out there using "Ponderosa Pine"?
You've got to be joking, right? Must all scientists be cue makers to validate their potential contributions toward the craft? I never said I was a cue maker, I just gave a helpful link to consider is all. Sorry if the info pisses on your sealant parade.
Still, I have probably made more different items of more different types of wood than 90% of the membership here. Mainly, though, I have restored valuable wooden musical instruments up to 300 years old for about 35 years now. Trust me, I've seen plenty that relates to moisture content changes in sealed and finished wood. During this time, I've repaired thousands of instruments that suffered from the ravages of constantly changing MCs, in spite of many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer or varnish having been applied to preserve them. I truly believe this experience extends to all wood.
Funny how so many have mentioned the TAR interview with Ernie, but I wonder how many caught the comment about learning from everybody he could. Among others, he made mention of guitar makers in that group, and he even made a few guitars himself. Maybe listening and learning from every source he could is part of the reason why he sits at the very top of the heap? Where do you sit relative to Ernie?
I offer my knowledge, not as a cue maker, but as an experienced woodworker who has done the research. I'm not here posting on the makers forum every day, only when I read something that it wrong and I think I can offer some helpful input.
Here are the facts. All wood is hygroscopic by nature. It releases bound water when the relative humidity is low, and gains it back when it is high. Finishes and surface sealants are like insulation. Insulation doesn't prevent heat loss, it merely slows it down. Finishes and sealants only slow down the rate of moisture content change, they don't eliminate it.
Now, maybe slowing down the rate of MC change will allow the wood to remain dimensionally stable while it is being worked. I haven't read or done research on that. But for you to discount valuable scientific information regarding your craft just because it hasn't examined every wood you might use in a cue, well that is just a case of ignorance is bliss IMO.
Maybe you can conduct your own (scientific) experiments based on the work already done on Ponderosa pine. You can do the same type of study, but expand the wood selection to include the woods listed in the Hightower book for starters, then expand on that selection as new samples come in. Who knows? Maybe Ponderosa pine is the only wood in the world that can't be sealed against atmospheric moisture.
I highly doubt it, though.
Case closed and thank you for your input on Ponderosa Pine which no one in Cue Making utilizes. Additionally, we are dealing with hardwoods and not such woods as Ponderosa Pine. Furthermore all experienced cue makers know how to seal wood for use as a cue. We've all exchanged info on that subject. Additionally many, many cue makers use Nelsonite, Resolute and Shaft Dip which is a totally different process than the sealants used in the example you selected. And, we're not sealing wood for furniture or fences.
However, thank you for your input and have a wonderful day.
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This is just ignorant,
I don't want to start a pissing contest with you and realize that you have a great deal of knowledge to contribute to this forum. Having said that I believe you owe Sloppy pockets an apology, his post is right on the money. Any woodworker worth his salt knows what he said to be true. Just because he doesn't build cue's does not make his knowledge of wood invalid. I for one appreciate his contributions and don't feel that your response was appropriate.
You see that is what makes America a wonderful place; we can agree to disagree. I'm not even going to bring in the fact that you called me "ignorant. That was totally uncalled for but it's ok as I have a really thick skin. I'm probably just another 'dumb American' to you. I'm sorry but I just can't help that.
Are you in fact from Canada; Montreal, Quebec?The chap is making reference to a government article that is replete with spelling errors to support his claims that you just cannot seal wood. And, in said article he's citing Ponderosa Pine as an example. We work with hardwoods; not Ponderosa Pine. We all know that wood absorbs moisture and we all work towards minimizing that issue by using certain chemicals, maintaining shop temperature/humidity and using various sealants. Personally I believe that citing this example was not a good example of hardwoods used in making cues and that 'general' info such as that is not accurate in our profession. It's a great 'general' article but we are not 'general' manufacturers; we make a specific item - cues. Just because Ponderosa Pine absorbs moisture doesn't mean Cocobolo and Snakewood does the same thing at the same rate, etc. We are sealing small areas not broad boards as is being discussed. We were talking about sealing wood prior to finishing a cue not the actual finishes that the article is stating. Absurd.
Making a cue is not rocket science but a lot of newbies want to make more out of it that it really is. I can take anyone, probably even a monkey and teach him how to make a cue and make it stable for years to come. Like I said, it's not rocket science and pretending that it is does a disservice to those wanting to get into the hobby and business.
And lastly, the article is for finishing woods and the article is talking about boards and not specific items such as guitars, duck calls or cues. Most cue makers are working with turning squares which is vastly different. We were discussing sealing woods during construction and not finishing woods so the article is not really relevant.
Thank you for your contribution and that's my three cents.
No Joe I am not from Quebec, I am from Alberta and just to clarify I did not call you ignorant, I called your statement ignorant. My point was that Sloppy pockets made a valid point about it being impossible to prevent wood from moisture loss and gain. You tried to discredit him for making this point. You could have simply stated that you didn't think his reference article was very relevant to the discussion and left it at that. The fact still remains that if you build an article made of wood it will always be susceptible to moisture exchange. You can use more stable species of wood and seal and finish to slow down the effects but it will always be a factor. This is just something in my opinion cuemakers do not like talking about because it doesn't matter how good a reputation you have your cues will not be immune. It is also my opinion that because cuemakers work in a global market they do not want there customers to think to much about this fact. They do not want the geological location to be a factor in whether a customer chooses to buy a cue from them.You see that is what makes America a wonderful place; we can agree to disagree. I'm not even going to bring in the fact that you called me "ignorant. That was totally uncalled for but it's ok as I have a really thick skin. I'm probably just another 'dumb American' to you. I'm sorry but I just can't help that.
The chap is making reference to a government article that is replete with spelling errors to support his claims that you just cannot seal wood. And, in said article he's citing Ponderosa Pine as an example. We work with hardwoods; not Ponderosa Pine. We all know that wood absorbs moisture and we all work towards minimizing that issue by using certain chemicals, maintaining shop temperature/humidity and using various sealants. Personally I believe that citing this example was not a good example of hardwoods used in making cues and that 'general' info such as that is not accurate in our profession. It's a great 'general' article but we are not 'general' manufacturers; we make a specific item - cues. Just because Ponderosa Pine absorbs moisture doesn't mean Cocobolo and Snakewood does the same thing at the same rate, etc. We are sealing small areas not broad boards as is being discussed. We were talking about sealing wood prior to finishing a cue not the actual finishes that the article is stating. Absurd.
Making a cue is not rocket science but a lot of newbies want to make more out of it that it really is. I can take anyone, probably even a monkey and teach him how to make a cue and make it stable for years to come. Like I said, it's not rocket science and pretending that it is does a disservice to those wanting to get into the hobby and business.
And lastly, the article is for finishing woods and the article is talking about boards and not specific items such as guitars, duck calls or cues. Most cue makers are working with turning squares which is vastly different. We were discussing sealing woods during construction and not finishing woods so the article is not really relevant.
Thank you for your contribution and that's my three cents.
Whether it was my statement that was ignorant, I wrote the "ignorant" statement so it must be that I'm ignorant and that's ok. I don't think it was necessary to call me or my statement ignorant but if that made your day then I am happy to accept that. It just doesn't add to the conversation. As I previously stated, I have a real thick skin. I completely understand your position as well as understanding SloppyPockets' reply however...
One thing SloppyPockets and others need to understand. This section is 'Ask The CueMaker' not 'Ask Anyone Who Has Something To Say' and as such misinformation gets distributed. SloppyPockets posted reference to wood finishing regarding Ponderosa Pine when the conversation was about sealing hardwoods while working on it. That's quite a difference in the conversation.
Experienced cue makers don't mind talking about most things especially geographical factors. I've had my cues in Canada to Australia, Germany, Portugal, Florida, Tennessee as well as Vegas to name just a few. I stayed in contact with most of my clients and quite frankly, no one ever expressed any hesitation about purchasing because we built cues here or in Timbuktu. Moreover, we speak with many, many top tier cue makers and we speak quite frankly. Not one ever expressed any concern about their clients concern over geographical location. When you're a seasoned cue maker, geography is not a factor because you know what to do and what not to do. Furthermore, my cues can withstand the abuse of Florida humidity and Vegas dry climate all in one day. Cue Makers we speak to also don't stress over that issue either. Been there, done that and knowing what to do and how to do it separates the men from the boys.
OK, play time is now over and it's almost dinner so I am out of here.
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Thanks, Sheldon.
FWIW I carefully read the rules for posting in the "Ask the Cuemaker" forum back when I registered a year and a half ago:
In keeping with the spirit of which this sub-forum was created, I have refrained from giving any advice regarding the building of cues. I have, however, made maybe a dozen or so posts during this time regarding either wood or materials as I thought of info that I felt fit the subject at hand.
With less than 5% of my total posts on AZB appearing on this forum, I think it's safe to say I fit into the "exception instead of the norm" phrase in the rules. I fully expect, as Sheldon states above, that intelligent cuemakers will take all comments here with a grain of salt, and that naturally includes my own contributions.
However, as the rules state, folks are free to anonymously report any posts that they feel are in violation of these rules. I encourage everyone to exercise that freedom if they feel it is appropriate. I'm sure Mr. Wilson will be the first to tell me if my comments are not within the confines of the rules.
If that is not strict enough for some, I suggest you start your own forum and make your own rules. Or take a poll and vote me off the cuemaker's island and I'll never make another post here. I have no wish to do anything more than offer whatever knowledge I may have for whatever value it may have. If you don't like what I have to say, report it, ignore it, or make your case against it and then move on.
Thanks,
Danny Fera
This is why all the top tier cue maker's shun this forum and why it's littered with so much misinformation. People post links to sites adding to a thread when the thread was about nothing they posted the link about.
It's 'Ask The Cue Maker' and replies "should primarily be the experienced cuemakers who provide the answers. It might be appropriate for non-cuemakers to give some input on occasions. But that should be the exception instead of the norm".
And if you are a "non-cuemaker" then by all means post (on occasion) when your post is relevant to the thread and adds to the topic. Not when it creates a side conversation about nothing to do with the original direction. So, now we're discussing something that has nothing to do with what the thread was originally about. If this had stayed with 'Ask The Cue Maker' we wouldn't be here.
And, if you're coming in from left field, take the time to read the thread and not post from the center of the thread not knowing what the thread was about in the first place. You don't build a cue from the wrap inward so don't comment from the center of the thread without knowing the original direction in the first place.
I'm done. Have a great day.
It's 'Ask The Cue Maker' and replies "should primarily be the experienced cuemakers who provide the answers. It might be appropriate for non-cuemakers to give some input on occasions. But that should be the exception instead of the norm".
And if you are a "non-cuemaker" then by all means post (on occasion) when your post is relevant to the thread and adds to the topic. Not when it creates a side conversation about nothing to do with the original direction. So, now we're discussing something that has nothing to do with what the thread was originally about. If this had stayed with 'Ask The Cue Maker' we wouldn't be here.
And, if you're coming in from left field, take the time to read the thread and not post from the center of the thread not knowing what the thread was about in the first place. You don't build a cue from the wrap inward so don't comment from the center of the thread without knowing the original direction in the first place.
I'm done. Have a great day.
Here, here & tap, tap.
When someone offers pertinent info, I'm willing to listen.
No one knows it all, though some pretend to.
You certainly don't need to be a cue-maker to have knowledge of wood.
KJ
Joe, no offense, but you are the first one to go in the direction of sealers and the need thereof. You post appears directly above mine, so.... who came in from left field first?
BTW you never once helped the OP out with a schedule for turning shafts, just gave some "theory" based on your own observational experience. Remember, direct observation of the Earth gave rise to the notion that it was flat. This notion continued for many thousands years until mathematicians and scientists eventually proved it to be false.
Now, for those who may be interested, here's more info that may help you design a turning schedule based upon MC and ambient relative humidity:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_13.pdf
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgrh.html
http://www.shorstmeyer.com/wxfaqs/humidity/rh.html
I personally am somewhat skeptical of the role moisture change has in the warping of cue shafts while turning. If the shafts are well-seasoned and equilibrated to the shop's environment, they should be the same MC inside and out. Moisture moves into and out of wood only when the actually MC of the wood differs from the EMC (equilibrium moisture content) at a given relative humidity. This info can be obtained from numerous sources on the net, but the first link I gave above is probably the best treatment on the subject that I know of. If you can read and understand everything in this document, you will be light years ahead of the average cuemaker who comes into this craft from a machining rather than a woodworking background.
I suspect that the main reason that wood moves when it is cut is because locked in internal growing stresses are relieved. This can be a rather small movement, in which case it can probably be turned out in subsequent passes. However, if you make a heavy cut in a well-seasoned dowel and the wood bends like a banana right away, I think it should be used to warm the shop come winter.
When I worked for Woodcraft Supply, I was giving a lesson on the table saw to some students. I grabbed a nice piece of kiln-dried 8/4 quarter-sawn black walnut to show how to rip a plank into strips. The first strip came off the board like a piece of modern art, instantly twisting upward and outward in two dimensions, right as it was being cut.
The students all thought it was the cheap Jet saw I was using, but I proceeded to make successive cuts in the same board. The next cut warped, but not as badly. The last several cuts came out perfectly straight, and stayed that way. Apparently, there was a lot of internal stress on one side of the plank, but it was stabilized by the rest of the plank, so it was straight until further machining was done on it.
This is also a good example of why you should never remove the anti-kickback pawls or riving knife from your table saw. Had I cut this board starting at the opposite side on a saw with the safety equipment removed, I would have eaten that whole plank in a fraction on a second.
There's another phenomenon that most wood workers are unaware of, and that is invisible runout. This was discovered by engineers trying to piece together why spruce airplane parts were failing and leading to crashes. On initial examination, all of these members appeared to be perfectly quarter-sawn, but another kind of runout was occurring because of the way the logs had been sawed.
Here's a link to a guitar making site that explains pretty clearly how this can happen, and shows why all skilled instrument makers use wood sawed from split billets rather than quarter-sawn planks.
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
There are other ways that this kind of runout can occur right in the growing tree, and these growing flaws can never be machined out or stabilized, nor will they be apparent with a mere visual examination.. Dowels or turning squares that come from these trees will yield rejects no matter how carefully they are treated. Toss 'em right away, it's all part of being a superior woodworker IMHO.
From what I've seen, I definitely think it does.
If someone has a shop in a dry place and keeps his shop's conditions controlled ( say 75* and 45-50% ), he better not open the door hours before cutting or during cutting if humidity outside is much dryer.
I COULD BE WRONG, but I'd like to hear other makers.
But, I think most makers in very dry or very wet climate areas, like to control the conditions in the shop and do not turn shafts if the conditions are extreme.
I've seen unsealed zebrawood check while turning during a dry day.
ps
Thanks for the links Dan.
I'm gonna split boards with an ax now. Not on a band saw. j/k
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Thanks for the links Dan.
I'm gonna split boards with an ax now. Not on a band saw. j/k
Ha, Ha! I want to be there to take the videos. I used to teach woodworking at a private elementary school. I brought in some scrap spruce and showed how I split it with a big meat cleaver. Then I grabbed a curly hard maple log to show them how the figure weaved in and out when split. The meat cleaver failed miserably, so I ran out to my truck to get an old axe head and a hand sledge. The kids all took turns whacking that damn thing until one of the teachers from downstairs came running up to see what was up. Turns out we were knocking stuff off the walls down there.
Regarding the zebra, it has been my experience that exotics can take a very long time to dry. I wouldn't automatically trust a stateside kiln operator to understand how to set up a drying schedule for exotic woods. I'm not saying that you weren't sure the wood was properly dried and equilibrated to your shop, but drying defects can cause a host of problems that don't become apparent until the wood is worked.
I have seen pernambuco get riddled with checks that were invisible until I heated the stick to bend it. The next day the checks had disappeared as if healed, even under the closest examination. Of course, I knew the stick was junk, so I had to shit can it. Tough call at $100+ for 4 oz of wood, but I'm pretty used to about a 50% rejection rate in this beautiful but difficult wood. No room for error in a stick that is less than 5mm thick just behind the highest stress point. I just hope that a certain batch of 25 choice shaft blanks I purchased last fall have a little better acceptance rate once I get around to cutting them. :wink:
You see Sloppy, I commented on the schedule and moved on to state that the wood should also be sealed and then you came in with that link to something out in left field regarding finishing Ponderosa Pine. You were world's apart form the actual conversation. And, my "theory" is a working fact and not book knowledge and/or research by someone who never did.
To reiterate, you don't make cues, you've never turned a maple shaft, you never cored a piece of wood, you never put a joint pin in a cue. I see that you know a heck-of-a-lot about wood and the info, in general, is great but making cues is a lot different that cutting a piece of walnut on a band saw.
Additionally, if you were a cue maker, you would also know that some of us purchase wood (maple) that is already 'stress relieved' and we don't have the issues that you are discussing above. So, you do know what 'stress relieved' wood is? Perhaps you don't otherwise you would have brought it up, expounded on it and gave us all a link to another government article.
Ok, I'm done -- have a nice weekend.
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Jerry Forsyth
Well-known member
I would really appreciate it if everyone would cool it. The world will not notice who wins these forum quarrels.
There is nothing to see here. Move along, please.
There is nothing to see here. Move along, please.
Joey....I'm old and could be dead it two years. How many times have you told people not to leave their cues in there car? How many times have the same people not listened?
Cues and shafts are like kids. You can only protect them whilst in the womb. Once they are adopted it's hard to know what kind of parents they have gotten....
I have one guy that always leaves his cue in the car.... all summer in GA.
He continuously tells me that he has a really good case that seals......
HUH?
Kim
Joe,
I have made a cue or two in the last 53 years and I don't know what stress relieved is either and I've never cared. Frankly it sounds like most of the other things wood, and used car sellers tell me but just in case you're right I'm going to put on some mood music in the shop every night for a while just to relieve any stress I might have missed. But just incase, I'm still going to take 5 yo 8 years before I put a shaft on any cue I build
As far as learning about wood from others who don't build cues, we darn well better. Cue makers have about 50 clock years and maybe 20,000 man years of experience versus millions of man years for other crafts. Instrument makers in particular are knowledgeable about wood in ways that can pertain to cue making. Ponderosa pine is a wood and maybe there is something to be learned from.
Guitar makers have known for years that using one wood would produce a predictably different tone than another, Brazilian rosewood doesn't sound exactly like mahogany, etc. Open your ears listen and learn.
I have made a cue or two in the last 53 years and I don't know what stress relieved is either and I've never cared. Frankly it sounds like most of the other things wood, and used car sellers tell me but just in case you're right I'm going to put on some mood music in the shop every night for a while just to relieve any stress I might have missed. But just incase, I'm still going to take 5 yo 8 years before I put a shaft on any cue I build
As far as learning about wood from others who don't build cues, we darn well better. Cue makers have about 50 clock years and maybe 20,000 man years of experience versus millions of man years for other crafts. Instrument makers in particular are knowledgeable about wood in ways that can pertain to cue making. Ponderosa pine is a wood and maybe there is something to be learned from.
Guitar makers have known for years that using one wood would produce a predictably different tone than another, Brazilian rosewood doesn't sound exactly like mahogany, etc. Open your ears listen and learn.
Paul...
That's quite alright as no one knows-it-all. Stress relieving is what is done by experienced kiln operators to relieve the internal stress of the maple so that it limits the movement we have to encounter while making shafts. Basically it's just better wood.
As far as the harmonics of wood playing any important role in cues, well I think that's been hashed out already a while ago.
Hope this helps and keep the mood music going as maple likes that. At least that's what they tell me.