average run
- Thread starter kaznj
- Start date
Four safeties and a run of 20 gives a bpi of 4. 30 to 40 seems awfully high for a tightly contested game.
A very good number for the 1970s or so was 14 BPI. Back when the BCA ran a 14.1 championship every year, they kept records and such. The 1968 rule book has the records from the 1967 US Open which was won by Jimmy Caras. He lost his first match in the double elimination tournament and won the rest including two against Luther Lassiter for the finals. Caras's average was 11.02 and Lassiter had a 6.86 average for the whole tournament. Dallas West had the high run for the tournament with a 113 (matches were to 150). Back then people played more safeties, I think. In the women's division, Dorothy Wise had a 2.36 average and the high run of 40.
In the 1975 US Open, Mizerak, who finished in third place, had a 15.26 average. The next highest was Lou Butera with a 10.40. The winner was Dallas West who had an 8.19 average.
Here are the balls per inning figures from the US Open 14.1 event of 1967.
1st place finisher Jimmy Caras had an 11.02 BPI
2nd place Luther Lassiter had 6.86
3rd place Irving Crane had 9.29
4th place Dallas West had 8.26
5th place John Ervolino had 7.00
6th place Jack Breit had 6.66
7th place Joe Balsis had 10.70
8th place Frank McGown had 6.86
9th place Steve Mizerak had 9.23
10th place Dan Gartner had 8.16
11th place Alton Whitlow had 6.66
12th place Maynard Parish had 4.81
13th place Lou Butera had 10.05
14th place Cisero Murphy had 7.96
In other words, not even one player in the 1967 US Open 14.1 event managed twelve balls per inning. Of course, a turn consisting only of a safety counted as zero.
As for "open table" innings, Jack Colavita, one of the greats in the 1970's and1980's used to say that if he hoped to contend with the very best in his day, he needed to average 35 balls per inning if he came to the table with a shot and an open rack.
I have read that Mosconi averaged about 15 per inning and Mike Sigel averaged 13 per inning in their respective primes.
1st place finisher Jimmy Caras had an 11.02 BPI
2nd place Luther Lassiter had 6.86
3rd place Irving Crane had 9.29
4th place Dallas West had 8.26
5th place John Ervolino had 7.00
6th place Jack Breit had 6.66
7th place Joe Balsis had 10.70
8th place Frank McGown had 6.86
9th place Steve Mizerak had 9.23
10th place Dan Gartner had 8.16
11th place Alton Whitlow had 6.66
12th place Maynard Parish had 4.81
13th place Lou Butera had 10.05
14th place Cisero Murphy had 7.96
In other words, not even one player in the 1967 US Open 14.1 event managed twelve balls per inning. Of course, a turn consisting only of a safety counted as zero.
As for "open table" innings, Jack Colavita, one of the greats in the 1970's and1980's used to say that if he hoped to contend with the very best in his day, he needed to average 35 balls per inning if he came to the table with a shot and an open rack.
I have read that Mosconi averaged about 15 per inning and Mike Sigel averaged 13 per inning in their respective primes.
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Charlie Ursitti has a great deal of historical info on his site. Here are a bunch of tournaments from the 1940s:
http://charlesursitti.com/?page_id=202
Of particular interest is how many innings Mosconi played in these events and how often he had a 100-ball run. Look, for example, at the Championship challenge match between Mosconi and Caras in Feb/March 1946 which was played over two full months.
But balls per inning normally tell you very little about how the game went. Game 1: 14 safeties followed by a run of 150-and-out, for a BPI of 10. Game 2: 15 innings of making 10 balls each time (with misses to end each of the first 14 innings), for a BPI of 10. Those two games are entirely different from each other.
In most cases, you really need considerably more information to understand much about a game.
In the info from sjm in post #5, although the winner had the highest BPI, there is little overall correlation between where the players placed in the event and what their BPI was.
So, while BPI is a number of some interest, it rarely tells the whole story.
In most cases, you really need considerably more information to understand much about a game.
In the info from sjm in post #5, although the winner had the highest BPI, there is little overall correlation between where the players placed in the event and what their BPI was.
So, while BPI is a number of some interest, it rarely tells the whole story.
Sadly, we didn't have Accu-Stats back then or we could have the additional stats of misses, missed safeties, good safeties, tap safeties, failed easy clearances, and such.
Another interesting number would be missed called shots. I vaguely recall a tournament Greenleaf won in which he pocketed 1250 balls and had 7 misses. Maybe someone can fill in and/or correct the details.
I saw a New Jersey Open final (Hohmann's first or second) in which he and his opponent never ran fewer than 23 from an open shot.
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cledussnow
Registered
My favorite of all billiards games.
Cool to see stats for the pros.
Cool to see stats for the pros.
cledussnow
Registered
My favorite of all billiards games
Sorry for the dbl post, it said "500 internal error", so I tried again.
Sorry for the dbl post, it said "500 internal error", so I tried again.
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The highest I ever heard of was 50, this is when Thorsten Hohmann
won the European Championship 14.1 2005-ish.
I saw the quarter, semi and final where he ran 125 and out in the first inning in two matches
and the third match took 2 or 3 innings, the whole tournament of 1000 points
supposedly took him 20 innings.
That week Thorsten was unbeatable. If the matches would have been to 550,
who knows. AFAIK nobody has come close since of before, but I guess Mosconi
could do it in a race to 1000 aswell.
In the German first Bundesliga where the average level of play is not that far
below Pro speed I believe anything over 10 average is considered very high (this
over the course of a season, not one match off course).
Some numbers from well known names: Feijen, 13.89, Andreas Roschowsky 12.14, Dominic Jentsch 8.13
gr. Dave
won the European Championship 14.1 2005-ish.
I saw the quarter, semi and final where he ran 125 and out in the first inning in two matches
and the third match took 2 or 3 innings, the whole tournament of 1000 points
supposedly took him 20 innings.
That week Thorsten was unbeatable. If the matches would have been to 550,
who knows. AFAIK nobody has come close since of before, but I guess Mosconi
could do it in a race to 1000 aswell.
In the German first Bundesliga where the average level of play is not that far
below Pro speed I believe anything over 10 average is considered very high (this
over the course of a season, not one match off course).
Some numbers from well known names: Feijen, 13.89, Andreas Roschowsky 12.14, Dominic Jentsch 8.13
gr. Dave
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Maybe the upcoming accustats 14.1 event will track that.
Yes, I was there when Thorsten performed his amazing feat. He was totally relentless and no one was able to threat him. Crazy.
Another remarkable average but not in a game was Mika Immonen's average at Derby City one year (I think it was the second). He averaged 60.
Were opening break safes among Hohmann's count? Or maybe he lagged well.
Yes, this average includes all innings including breaks.
From what I heard about the matches I did not see he ran x and out pretty much every time.
gr. Dave
Thorsten was just unbeatable that year...he ran out every game with the first open ball he got! That's just unbelievable...
He played a friend of mine, Nico Ottermann in the final...Nico did the break shot very good...thorsten studied the rack like 5 minutes and called a combination...from that point on Nico was sure he wouldn't come back to the table again...he was right...toastie made the combo and ran 125 an out...that's what happend in the semis and quarters also...
his 1000 in 20 innings includes all safeties, open breakshots etc. it's just an unbelievable accomplishment and I can't see it ever being beaten...
To the original question:
The averages in the german leagues are all recorded since many years...top players are around the two digits...10 and more over the whole season is made by lets say about 10-15 players per season...including pros like feijen, ortmann, etc. anything above 10 is pretty sporty...30 or 40 is very unrealistic for more than 2 or 3 games...
you have to remember that every inning counts...which means any safety battle that goes on for a few innings destroys the average...
So it sounds like he missed or played a safe only 12 times (at 125/game) in 1000 points. It would be interesting to know how many misses there were and consequently how many balls per miss.