APA Corruption..?

[CreeDo]

Imo the formula they use is pretty predictable and consistent. I can watch someone play a few racks, then predict their APA ranking. I never saw someone's rank change where I was shocked at the new number and had no possible explanation.

Usually the really wild changes happen when they're brand new. Saw 4 drop to 2, and 9 drop to 6 with brand new players. Never saw a jump that large with longtime players.

In this case I'd look for the simplest explanation (the 6 is good enough to be a 7) rather than cooking up conspiracy theories. My team also wanted to cry shenanigans when a 5 got bumped up after a written complaint from a new player who had no idea what he was talking about. But that 5 has held his 6 for a year now and it turns out that's just his actual skill level.

Tell your six congratulations and start shopping for an extra 3 or something.

 

[Rio19]

we have had lots of people around here win trips to Vegas and win LTCs and TRI cups, the whole nine yards, its amazing how i here about them trying to sandbag and mnipulate the system to win at the next level, the whole thing is based on lying about your true ability, and i dont want any part of it, besides they basically make it hard for you to play after you top out in their handicaps,its about money and thats it. The Valley and BCA leagues seem better to me,and besides when you get to a national level, there should be no handicaps,it should be scratch all the way around, then you dont have to worry about that crap. I hear buddies of mine that are team captains that tell their players to lose to keep their handicaps down for LTCs or State or whatever, whatever happened to playing your best and letting the chips fall where they do. I hear them say ,"well you wouldnt get many people to compete if you did that, well they need to spend the time to get better then. Nobody gave me any spot or handicap coming up, and i got better a lot quicker then all these APA bangers,they are all a bunch of chicken shits to play and get beat. I say bring on Earl Strickland in my league, and he will beat me for a while but i will get better and he will beat me less and less until i play even with him, thats the way it is done,they need to have some heart man. Instead they play at the same level for years, and wonder why,well hell you cant get better if theirs no better players to play against,you are only as good as your competition. Play bangers and you will never be anything but a banger.

Very good points. My team has a fight for every ball attitude. From our 2 to our new 7 we fight for every point on the table. Sandbagging in my opinion is the reason the handicaps are off. Like our resident LO said there are also times when people are not sandbagging but by the time league starts there brain is fried from working a long day and just cant get in stroke( I fall under this one most nights)

With that being said I still feel if the computer says your SL 3 or 4 after a match no one should be able to change it or override the system. This would cut down on the conspircy therioes and keep players playing. The current system seems to push more people away.

I get that the APA is a business and money is the ultimate goal so if a few thousand out of the millions get screwed who cares.

Until the masses speak out in one voice nothing will change...

 

[Rio19]

Imo the formula they use is pretty predictable and consistent. I can watch someone play a few racks, then predict their APA ranking. I never saw someone's rank change where I was shocked at the new number and had no possible explanation.

Usually the really wild changes happen when they're brand new. Saw 4 drop to 2, and 9 drop to 6 with brand new players. Never saw a jump that large with longtime players.

In this case I'd look for the simplest explanation (the 6 is good enough to be a 7) rather than cooking up conspiracy theories. My team also wanted to cry shenanigans when a 5 got bumped up after a written complaint from a new player who had no idea what he was talking about. But that 5 has held his 6 for a year now and it turns out that's just his actual skill level.

Tell your six congratulations and start shopping for an extra 3 or something.

My 6 was actually penned through during match play and made a 7. As stated before it not that he got raised to a 7 it is the manner in which it was done.

 

[Rio19]

Pretty simple really. When the regular season ends, everyone's HC freezes.

Thus, if you wanna put the time in and get in stroke before the playoffs, start practicing your rear end off and let some 6 play like a 7, he put the time in, so to bad.

I mean, how can you possibly prepare for the playoffs not knowing if someone is gonna suddenly move up or not. Just freeze them all. I mean, is a 3 gonna really play like a 5 come playoff time?? If she plays like a 4, good for her.

The APA could be tweaked to become very good, but very stubborn organization imho. I mean, a child can learn that slop don't count, yet a nationally recognized pool organization keeps this silly rule in play in this day and age?? Trust me, and "3" does not feel good cause they slopped a ball in.... so who exactly does it help ?

Great Point!!!

 

[Celophanewrap]

So there are a bunch of pool leagues out there. I know everyone of them has "undesirable" players, I suspect that they all have some slightly less that honest League Operators or Managers. But here's the thing, it's like a TV show, if you don't like it, you change the channel or turn it off. If you don't like it just a little and it's a pain to walk across the room and get the remote then maybe you put up with it until it gets better.
APA, BCA, TAP, or what have you, same thing - if you don't like it, change the channel or go find another one.

For me personally, I don't happen to agree with everything the APA is or does, but I love hanging out with my friends and playing pool. Now we could (and have) gone to other leagues to play, but at least here I find the ass-hole factor to be overall lower in the APA. I think the rules are the most player friendly and that suites my friends that are of lesser skill levels. For all the issues that everyone has with them, between all the different available leagues I'd just rather play APA, it's just easier, and I don't play pool to try and find stress. For those of us that probably aren't at the level that some of you are, the APA make perfect sense.

The APA isn't for everyone, and I think we all recognize that. If you have to control things that are beyond your control then the APA isn't for you. But to be fair, if I found my LO to be as dishonest as some of you find yours to be I can't say I'd be an APA member for very long. The fact is that I trust the LO here and I have learned that they don't have the time to worry about jerking one team or one person around. I think a lot of folks that get mad and complain about the LO being dishonest would find that to be the case if they could step back and analyze unemotionally.

 

[Banks]

The APA could be tweaked to become very good, but very stubborn organization imho. I mean, a child can learn that slop don't count, yet a nationally recognized pool organization keeps this silly rule in play in this day and age?? Trust me, a "SL3" does not feel good cause they slopped a ball in.... so who exactly does it help ?

I think BCA should be call-shot, but what the hey. Efren probably felt bad about slopping in a 9 in the last US Open, too. If people can't handle that, they should stick to chess and checkers.

Imo the formula they use is pretty predictable and consistent. I can watch someone play a few racks, then predict their APA ranking. I never saw someone's rank change where I was shocked at the new number and had no possible explanation.

Same here. I've seen a 5/8, a 4/7 and a 7/4. While the lower number seems a bit far from the other, it was either very close to moving or representative for a reason. The 5/8 was a bit back. A few people whined about it.. I said it was because his 8 strategy sucked arse. I played him a 5-3 for cheap and won 5-0 or 5-1. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean there isn't a solid reason.

For me personally, I don't happen to agree with everything the APA is or does, but I love hanging out with my friends and playing pool. Now we could (and have) gone to other leagues to play, but at least here I find the ass-hole factor to be overall lower in the APA. I think the rules are the most player friendly and that suites my friends that are of lesser skill levels. For all the issues that everyone has with them, between all the different available leagues I'd just rather play APA, it's just easier, and I don't play pool to try and find stress. For those of us that probably aren't at the level that some of you are, the APA make perfect sense.

The APA isn't for everyone, and I think we all recognize that. If you have to control things that are beyond your control then the APA isn't for you. But to be fair, if I found my LO to be as dishonest as some of you find yours to be I can't say I'd be an APA member for very long. The fact is that I trust the LO here and I have learned that they don't have the time to worry about jerking one team or one person around. I think a lot of folks that get mad and complain about the LO being dishonest would find that to be the case if they could step back and analyze unemotionally.

Well put.

My LO has raised me, I think, or at least teammates around "crucial" times. You know what? It sucks, but I deal with it. She doesn't have anything against me and I don't have anything against her or the way she does things. Some people complain, but as with anything there will always be a few. For the most part, when I hear it, I just ignore it because usually they don't know what the heck they're talking about.

 

[TCIndepMo]

FULL DISCLOSURE - I've been an APA LO for 32 years in Jackson County, MO (greater Kansas City).

Never once have I forced a player onto a team. You guys gather your own group of eight players together and form your own teams. You know what you are getting in the way of pool playing ability as you sign up your own new players. You know what a players skill level should be before even the LO does as you don't recruit total strangers. Skill level changes are based on the score sheets generated during league play, either weekly or tournament. OR the LO gathers enough info to determine a player is underrated and overrides the computer and raises a player in fairness to the opponent. This is part of our job! When your roster goes up to what it should be and that causes you inconveience on the 23 RULE - that is a problem of your own making, not mine. You put the roster together, not me.

Usually when a player goes up (and complains) this means there is an opponent that is thinking "Now this guy's SL is where it should be and now I have a fair chance". When an opposing team gets a SL increase I never hear any complaints from the chronic complainers about that.

In my area (Kansas City, MO) every team is treated the same. Whether from a bar with 22 teams or only one. First session or 15th year. I don't care.

The APA is designed to appeal to the lesser skilled player. My membership has always been about 66% of skill level 4's and below, approx the same as the national membership spread. There are more 4's and below out there as customers of the host locations so obviously they will make up the bulk of the membership. You higher rated players will always be in the minority but are always welcome to play in the APA. The 23 RULE is designed to require teams to play more lower rated players. The APA does not want a team of all 5's, 6's and 7's to win the national title. This is no secret. If you want to play in a league of all higher skilled players - look around. There are leagues designed just for you. Smaller than the APA, but they're there.

And YES the APA makes money for the LOs. Also no secret, never has been. Just like the billiard supply store where you bought your cue, which generated some profit off of that sale. Just like the bar you play at. Your bar owner makes money off of you on every beer sale. It is to that owner's advantage to keep you happy with cold beer and good service. Else you go down the street. APA is same way. It is to my advantage to treat everyone fairly and consistently. I know I will never be the only league in town, but I am the biggest with the biggest LTC and money pay back. Have been for years. It is to my advantage (business wise and every other way) to treat everyone the same and NOT to play favorites (get accused all the time anyway). It is to my advantage to treat you fairly and honestly so you stay active in my league. Not complicated. Players vote with their feet - I know this.

The APA skill level is not something designed to ruin your night, etc. It is not a burden I put in your way just to screw with you. It is a number that describes your pool playing ability in comparison to the rest of the players in your area. If you go from a SL 4 to SL 5 - this means you have already demonstrated the ability to play at the level of the other SL 5s in my area. Your skill level is NOT determined on one nights play, but your best 10 nights of the last 20 with some other math factors figured in. And YES the LO does have the obligation to over ride the computer and raise players determined to be under rated (sandbagging). This is not something the LO "gets to do", it is something the LO "is supposed to do" in fairness to your opponents. Skill level overrides are taken very seriously and are one of the greatest challenges for any LO. Your paper trail and track record, along with the LOs experience and knowledge are very important factors here. I have put in overrides on one player knowing that it would cause a full team to quit altogether. Did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do. Two or three percent of my players are not going to determine (by complaining) how I serve the entire membership.

The LO that never overrides and keep sending players up stream that are not rated correctly will soon be an ex-LO. If you get my drift.

Keep accurate score, mark your safeties and stop with the academy award performances when you miss on purpose because you're trying to pad your innings. I've seen it for 32 years. Instead of sandbagging try being honest with yourself and your opponents.

OK. Let the flames begin.

 

[KRJ]

The APA is designed to appeal to the lesser skilled player. My membership has always been about 66% of skill level 4's and below, approx the same as the national membership spread.

.

No flame, but in fairness, it is not designed to appeal to the lesser player, it is designed to keep a new influx of new players in the mix as they keep jacking up the other players right out the door. Thus, you have no choice but to go out and recruit some players cause everyone is gonna need a 2 and 3.

And that is OK, but lets not pretend that is NOT part of the business model.......It has both some merit and some flaws......

 

[Celophanewrap]

I've been an APA LO for 32 years in Jackson County, MO (greater Kansas City).
The APA skill level is not something designed to ruin your night, etc. It is not a burden I put in your way just to screw with you. It is a number that describes your pool playing ability in comparison to the rest of the players in your area. If you go from a SL 4 to SL 5 - this means you have already demonstrated the ability to play at the level of the other SL 5s in my area. Your skill level is NOT determined on one nights play, but your best 10 nights of the last 20 with some other math factors figured in. And YES the LO does have the obligation to over ride the computer and raise players determined to be under rated (sandbagging). This is not something the LO "gets to do", it is something the LO "is supposed to do" in fairness to your opponents. Skill level overrides are taken very seriously and are one of the greatest challenges for any LO. Your paper trail and track record, along with the LOs experience and knowledge are very important factors here. I have put in overrides on one player knowing that it would cause a full team to quit altogether. Did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do. Two or three percent of my players are not going to determine (by complaining) how I serve the entire membership.

This to me is the primary part of the APA that just doesn't work. I've played in a few national events and the players some parts of the country with equal or similar S/L's are always just so much better than players from other parts, I have a hard time seeing how this supposed to be fair. One of the main complaints I hear is, "That 4 could be a 7 in our area." or something similar, and this is true. In comparison to players from some parts of the country I should be at least 1, sometimes 2 S/L's below what I am ranked here, but in other parts I would likely be at least one higher. I would like to see this even out, but frankly I don't see any possible way to. Maybe some really smart LO's can get together and come up with something...

 

[Maniac]

Your skill level is NOT determined on one nights play, but your best 10 nights of the last 20 with some other math factors figured in.

So....if you start as a SL4 and play 20 matches, 10 of them like a SL5 and 10 of them like a SL3, they're going to make you a SL5 based on those BEST 10 matches, right? Without any regard of the outcome of the other 10 matches???

Wouldn't the proper handicapping in this scenario average this person out to being a SL4?

This person may or may not win consistently as a SL4, and will struggle as a SL5. Then, he gets tired of losing and feeling over-ranked and quits. APA loses a member.

Why not just keep this person a SL4 and let him win when he's on and lose when he's not? Even as a SL4 he's an even shot at winning a match.

IMO, taking the 10 best matches from the last 20 played does not fairly rate a players ability. It's not proper averaging. It's not entirely impossible for the above mentioned SL4 to shoot even worse than a SL3 in a few of his matches. Then, he's really screwed.

I don't care either way. APA handicapped league play is in my rear-view mirror. Just curious as to why APA National Office would figure someone's handicap that way.

Thanks for your time.

Maniac

 

[APA Operator]

I personally think that when you get to anything above regular league play then teh handicaps should be locked in all the way through nationals. Fine the league ops if they send teams over with wrong handicaps.

Won't comment on the situation at hand but such stories persist throughout the APA operation about people being arbitrarily moved up during tournaments.

First, when a player goes up, either by the software or by the LO, it is never arbitrary. How does it benefit me to pick a random person during a tournament and just raise their skill level? When someone tells a story about arbitrary raises, that should be your first clue that they got a taste of some sour grapes.

Second, if you lock skill levels, there will be the same number of stories, but they will ALL be about the sandbaggers who got away with it. The real sandbaggers WILL get away with it, and the honest players who just played a great match will be branded unfairly. You've done nothing to improve the situation.

Third, if you fine the LO for wrong handicaps (and here I'm inferring that by 'wrong' you mean 'low', because wrong on the high side wouldn't hurt anyone in a national tournament except those who were wrong on the high side) the stories will be about players who were "arbitrarily" raised just prior to the end of the session, and the "pyramid scheme" conspiracy stories would run even more rampant than they do today. Oh, and follow that process a little further into the future. Eventually, the LO who gets the numbers exactly right will get the fine, because everyone else will have their players so over-handicapped that his teams will have an easy time at nationals.

Fourth, if your only recourse during a tournament is disqualification, what happens when you suspect manipulation but aren't sure? The vast majority of players who go up during tournaments can handle the higher skill level, whether they were cheating or not. A skill level increase can solve the issue in both cases, but if your only recourse is to kick them out or let them remain at the lower skill level, you will still be making judgement calls and the consequences of being wrong get worse. Some cheaters will get to stay low and some honest players will get disqualified. More fuel for stories.

If nobody ever cheated (players or LO's) you could do it either way, right? If that were the case I would actually be in favor of freezing skill levels, AS LONG AS the skill levels could be reset at the beginning of each level. Given the time for improvement between levels, I think that would always be necessary, but during the course of each level a player isn't really going to improve by a significant amount.

Unfortunately, people do cheat, and they don't walk around with signs advertising themselves as cheaters. That goes for some operators, too. The best APA can do is give us the tools to protect our honest players from the cheaters, while at the same time protecting honest operators from dishonest ones. I believe there are fewer cheaters in both groups than people think, but I'm not naive enough to think there are none.

As for the stories? There will always be plenty of stories. Most teams will lose in a tournament and human nature will drive many of those teams to look for a scapegoat. I'll shoulder that burden. I can't prevent it, so I choose to embrace it, because I'm the one who knows what really happened. If you're looking for a bad guy, pick me. I'm good with myself.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Hello AZer's

I have been hearing horror stories about corruption in the APA for my year or so in. Today I a first hand look at what everyone in my league means. I live in area where the pool scene is pretty average at best so my league has 9 teams. Because the pool scene is small the APA is owned by a woman that lives in a different city 45 mins away.

Even though we are in the same league the only time we see the teams from the her city is when we have tri-cup or LTC's.

Today my team and I went to LTC's. Played the first match and won 55-45 (9ball) . After that match we had a 30min break and started the second match against one of her teams(as she calls the Lynchburg teams). At the start of the second match they put up a 6 so we do the same and she comes over and tells my teammate he has been moved to a SL7.

Now I am not the smartest person in the world but I am pretty sure that was wrong but because she is the LO there is nothing we can do about it but smile and take it up the rear raw. We lost that match because we couldnt make numbers and the messed up part is that next week the guy she screwed will be a 6 again.

It seems this is not the first time she has pulled this stunt on the Danville teams but what can we do about it. Anyone else here have any APA Corruption stories i would love hear about them.

As others have said, definitely ask your LO what the reason for the raise was. The other thing is that once the scoresheet is printed out and the match begins, she should *not* be raising anyone. It is permissible to raise a player on the spot if they are playing WAY above their skill level. But if your player hadn't even started playing, then there is NO justification for raising him/her in the middle of the match. I would definitely contact corporate if you are not able to get a satisfactory answer from your LO. Just be nice. When you talk to corporate try to ask questions rather than make statements. They can be VERY helpful if you approach them nicely and respectfully.

KMRUNOUT

 

[APA Operator]

So....if you start as a SL4 and play 20 matches, 10 of them like a SL5 and 10 of them like a SL3, they're going to make you a SL5 based on those BEST 10 matches, right? Without any regard of the outcome of the other 10 matches???

Wouldn't the proper handicapping in this scenario average this person out to being a SL4?

Not if you're trying to measure ability. If you want to measure average performance, do it that way. Average performance is much easier to manipulate, since you only have to hide your true ability SOME of the time.

Enough about cheaters, though. There are other reasons for using ability rather than average performance. Average performance can be a reflection of how you play when you're somewhat off, or if you're fairly consistent it can be a reflection of how you play when you play your best. Suppose two 4's match up in a tournament. One can play as good as a 6 sometimes, but as bad as a 2 sometimes. His "average" works out to 4. The other player is really consistent and always shoots a 4 number. In this particular match, both players shoot like a 5. One shoots above his head, maybe for the first time in his life, while the other is somewhat off. Which player deserves to win the match? I would say the guy who played his best deserves to win. Remember, they are both honest players.

This is what APA likes to see. If you play your best, whatever that is, you should have a good chance to win against someone who doesn't play their best. If you're "off", you should stand a good chance of losing to someone who plays their best. Measuring ability gets you that result more often than measuring average performance.

 

[KRJ]

This to me is the primary part of the APA that just doesn't work. I've played in a few national events and the players some parts of the country with equal or similar S/L's are always just so much better than players from other parts, I have a hard time seeing how this supposed to be fair. One of the main complaints I hear is, "That 4 could be a 7 in our area." or something similar, and this is true. In comparison to players from some parts of the country I should be at least 1, sometimes 2 S/L's below what I am ranked here, but in other parts I would likely be at least one higher. I would like to see this even out, but frankly I don't see any possible way to. Maybe some really smart LO's can get together and come up with something...

And you're dead on. I played personally with an APA 5 from the "east coast" and was running racks on me on a nine foot table. He advised he been a "5" for years, not months, but years.

He advised his LO does not want to hurt his league guys chances (or his profits) for Nationals.... and guess what, this guy wins or monies all the time, and his teams is right at the top as well at nationals, every year ????

They don't count safeties, everyone in the league is "part" of the conspiracy and thus nobody complains about being rated incorrectly, cause they all get a chance to take some cheese at nationals.

I'm not going to "rat" the guy out, cause I don't play APA anymore, and don't really care if they sandbag or not.... but the system is broken, and there is not any plans for a fix in the future. It's not about pool, it's about money... and that is fine... but just don't pretend it's about pool.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

A good W/E to quit

I just quit the apa this weekend.I've had enough of players moving up for no reason all the time. I got a guy who is a 3 loses more then he wins in high innings. got smoked last week by a 4 again and they moved him up to a 4. So being a 9 I'm screwed again. There's no point in being in a league I can't play...

LTC weekend for losing APA players is comparable to June for brides.

I feel your pain, but did you also know that 20% of first time divorcees remarry their spouse within 2 years ?

 

[cuedoctor]

Our match win to the hill with a team saturday and it came down to a 4 playing our 3. He won the lag...break and run rack one,break and run to last ball and hang it on purpose to get a few innings for rack two,break and make afew ball and leave ball froze to my players ball twice and win in 2 innings to win the team match. His player number indicated he only played one session because he was brand new and obviously sandbagged the whole session. I'm down to one night a week apa and play bca.....the real league. APA is not the problem its the people who play pool that is the problem. The players will always find a way to cheat and the new scoring system isn't going to change a thing. A player should be judged by his ability's....not his average. League operators should not be allowed to play on teams to keep them going,they should be out observing players and fixing handicap problems! I play bca and love to play players who are 9 and 10's and dont mind a azz whoopin but to watch players who play all year and are low skilled players not even have a chance is just wrong. I've been to vegas with my apa team and have recruited new players but I'm done with it. Blame the players .....apa is great for pool but if you have been in the game for many years you know what I'm talking about.

 

[CantEverWin]

Bigger problem

The bigger problem I see with the original story is that if the match had already started, and then the LO changed a players rating; that team should be allowed to start a match over.
I was on a team that ended up making it to nationals. I moved up after my first match which we knew was a possibility. After that, it made no sense for me to play with how our roster shaped up. However if they let us start my next match before telling us I moved up, that would totally screw up numbers, and matchups.
That's a much more unfair disadvantage than the other team having to play me as a lower handicap.
A couple LO's commented in this thread. I would be stunned to hear them say they'd put a team in that spot "as the fair thing to do."

I do agree however that the handicaps moving up (and down) are a part of playing Apa. It's not just pool. It's a system that involves strategy that requires you to pay attention to skill levels. The game is more than just what's on the table.
Handicaps moving In between matches is part of that game. Skill levels being changed within an actual match... Completely absurd unless your allowing that team to break the 23 rule.

I hadn't seen anyone mention that point. If the guys story is true then that could really have screwed them, and not their fault.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Not sure if this was brought up already. Sorry if I am repeating what somebody else wrote.

The main issue I see here is that you threw the player and after the matchup was determined the player went from a SL6>SL7. This is completely unfair because when you threw the SL6 you were planning a certain strategy. Now you are forced into a particular lineup (assuming you can even throw a full team). Had you known the player was raised before you threw him you could have found another solid lineup without playing a SL7. Complete BS. The national office should know about this.

 

[CantEverWin]

Not sure if this was brought up already. Sorry if I am repeating what somebody else wrote.

The main issue I see here is that you threw the player and after the matchup was determined the player went from a SL6>SL7. This is completely unfair because when you threw the SL6 you were planning a certain strategy. Now you are forced into a particular lineup (assuming you can even throw a full team). Had you known the player was raised before you threw him you could have found another solid lineup without playing a SL7. Complete BS. The national office should know about this.

That's exactly what I was trying to say in the post right above yours. You however were a bit more concise and to the point.

That was what I would have considered the huge blow. Not a player going up a single skill rating.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Listen people...

Play this league for the fun and occasional beer

Don't get bent over politics and the "Equalizer".

Play your game and STFU.

Y'all just don't get it or there are no other options for league play.

The honest people cry.

The L.O.'s defend, but at the end of the day this is a recreational league.

Work with your low skilled players to make them better!

I want a 2 on my team, just like you do. Get real now, after a couple of sessions they will move up if you work with 'em. Hell they might even move up sooner.

Go with a 7-6-6-3-3-2, etc. and work hard recruiting every session, if your dream is Vegas.

Or start a BCA league unless you can join one. Buy in to the BCA tournament and play straight up. They don't care how bad or good you play.

I think I'll start a survey asking how many APA bashers on this forum are SL4 and lower.

You know how that would play out.

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