bankoutallday
Banned
Enough BS
Enough of this nonsense,
Buy a Whitten 3x6 and you will never look back.
Enough of this nonsense,
Buy a Whitten 3x6 and you will never look back.
JB stoops to new lows
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I was thinking the exact same thing..... what exactly is JB's point, that when he touches the case only, he charges top of the line prices, just like Justis? But when he hires a few dudes at a couple of bucks an hour, the price is much lower?
I'd ask JB to expalin, but I really don't wanna read a post about the Encyclopedia of Cases right before lunch
The price is $400 for the case and $75 for shipping. Charging $100 for the case that I actually build as opposed to one that my staff builds is a fair price I think. Most people would agree that my time is worth more than my staff's time since I am the most knowledgeable person in our shop when it comes to case making.
If I charged the full value of my time then the case should cost a lot more but since this is also a personal project I just decided to charge a low price for it, sign it and allow one person to own the "made by John Barton" case.
Who knows I might get the bug to sit down and make cases all by myself but I doubt it. I like the flexibility of having a shop and staff available to collaborate with and have them carry out my ideas. If I made cases all by myself all the time I would either need to settle on simple construction and few choices like Jack did or I would end up being the Searing of cases getting very few done chasing perfection. And then of course each case would need to be thousands of dollars and really be out of range for most people.
Nestle's sweetened chocolate chips 3. Kroger's sweetened chocolate chips 2.69.
I'm starting to see what you're getting at. The tributes and replicas aren't 50 years old, so they're affordable. I hope I never have to buy 50 year old chocolate chips from a low production year.
Not really sure what your problem is, but it sounds like a doozy. Do you treat cue makers with the same disdain? "You're selling your merry widow for $300-$500, you son of a *****!"
Man, you guys are dense.
Well, I can buy a new cue from Hercek for 4K, or I can buy a similar looking cue made to look like a Hercek style for about $1500 from a decent cuemaker... One is the real thing, and one is the tribute "copy" made by a guy in Chine, Kalamazoo, or North Dakota by a guy I've never heard of.....
Some folks don't mind the copy and some do. But cuemakers don't come on this site and call Hercek, Tascarella, Szamboti "hacks" cause someone can make similar looking cues for a lot less money.
I mean, if your product is that good, JB should NOT have to remind us every second of every day. Joel NEVER mentions how good his cues, nor does Pete, or any other top cuemaker.... the only ones that continually do so are the second tier cuemakers trying to make a name for themselves, and rightly so....but they don't throw the top guys under the bus while doing it.... SEE THE DIFFERENCE, IF ONLY A LITTLE ??
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Sure if Whitten is a case that turns you on then do it. You know why I would never try to show anyone how to build a Whitten case? I am not sure that I could do one.
Kidding, of course I could do one but the fact is that the Whittens have perfect their own style of construction that makes a case that is not only truly elegant and immaculate in fit and finish but also very solid in construction. They pour a lot more time into the build of their cases than Justis does and as such are actually a better deal if one were to compare the two critically.
I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they get into Whitten's stye of cases simply because it's much tougher to make cases of that caliber they way they do it. However it's a worthy goal because if you can turn out cases at that level you will have a lot of business.
There are a lot of Whitten copies on the market now but they fall way short on the construction. Proving that a case may look good but not actually be good.
This may be your best reply ever. I think you may have a future in Infomercials if the case business dies down.
only if he beats me in bonus ball. i never played it before, so it is a fair match.
Blackballed is more of a Bonus Ball player now...he cant lose at that game....he is very rusty at the other rotation games though.....
wtf, perk?!
knock-knock!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you don't get it.
If anyone wants to bandsaw a Hercek and show it to the world and claim that they will build one like it then they should be free to do that.
Then they should proceed to do it. Has nothing to do with "throwing someone under the bus". It's called freedom to live and work as one pleases.
No one has a monopoly on anything creative. Hercek learned from Spain, Spain learned from Rambow by studying (copying) Rambow's splicing and making it better, according to Spain. Who did Rambow learn from?
Rambow spent his carreer making great CHEAP cues that everyone could afford for Brunswick and some more expensive ones for his customers. Why are you treating me any differently.
I devise case making methods that can be applied to lower priced cases and make cases for every level of buyer. You're upset because I have decided to use Jack's work as an example of simple case making? It is a simple case, that's a fact.
I don't care about "tiers" that's a nonsense designation. And if I did then going after the top-tier would be what everyone says to do anyway.
But if you want my opinion on who is really TOP TIER in this business right now then it's Whitten Cases, Rusty Melton, Al Kinghorn, Armor Cases, and Marc Turcasso. All of them build PRACTICAL cue cases with top notch workmanship and world class decoration. I don't consider Jack Justis to be a top tier case maker regardless of what any other people think or how much they have invested in the cases. I consider them to be a low level product that is decently made but not especially durable.
To that end I will make a similar case that is decently made, comparable in style but better made in some areas to last longer for less money.
Freedom. I have the right to make what I want when I want to make it. Anyone wants to copy us go ahead if you can do it.
My unsigned JJ. The real deal. I might ship it back to Jack for his sig.
That's very similar to mine, but mine is black and has a signature.
Banks
Banned
Oh, I see the difference. I just don't think it's much of a difference. Does Stroud come on and say how good his cues are now, even though he flaked on the forum? No, he doesn't have to, because his customer base was built years ago. Same thing with Toomucha-buskas and all of those other big name cue makers whose customers' aims are to make one resin orb hit another into a hole.
JB's doing what any good business owner should do - talking up his product.
I'm not dense, I just thought it wasn't a very good idea to compare $300 cue cases made in the same general time frame to rare one-offs built 50 years ago.
As for.. "One is the real thing, and one is the tribute "copy" made by a guy in Chine, Kalamazoo, or North Dakota by a guy I've never heard of....." I'd guess that most cue buyers couldn't tell you the difference between one and the other. Like wines, most people will tell you that the more expensive one is better when they know the price in advance, but most couldn't tell you one way or another without knowing.
Standing on the shoulder of giants, you reach new heights. -fortune cookie
JB has a long history of attacks on JJ and Bobby C
It's no secret
When's the last time you saw a top cue maker advertise their cues , ding ding ding , never their work sells its self
there's a waiting list to get on for their cues
and I can't think of one who got where there are by bad mouthing others cues
At the end of the day JB can rant and rave and post videos and such but he will still be playing catch up to JJ cases jacks earned that
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There is a lot of history with JB, starting way before here and continuing elsewhere too.
Two questions ....
How many wacked out threads about JB on AZ, Jimboarmy, rsb, IP, etc. ?
How many wacked out threads about JJ on AZ, Jimboarmy, rsb, IP, etc. ?
Dave
PS love the twists and turns in this wacked out thread, good work all
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My work doesn't sell itself and neither does Jack's. When is the last time you saw Joel Hercek post a cue on AZB or Tascarella or Gina? Never because they don't NEED to be here. Jack NEEDS to be on AZB showing off his work to continue to get business. Nothing sells itself, someone is always selling it. Hercek has customers because Spain had customers, Tascarella has customers because Balabushka had customers, Barry Szamboti has customers because Gus Szamboti had customers. All three of them follow in the tradition of those who came before them.
Once a maker develops a loyal following and has a list a mile long then it's OBVIOUS that they don't need to show off their work and get more business.
At the end of the day I do what's right for my business supporting 15 staff members and their families as well as my own family. If you don't agree with how I do then that's your right to disagree but until you are the one paying my bills you don't get to decide how I run my business or my life.
The fact is that this is a simple case and it will sell for less money than our custom cases. It won't affect Jack's business in the least but if it does then that's life. He can go BACK to China and try again to partner with someone else if he wants to offer a comparable product for a comparable price to the market.
Anyone who says that they don't get orders following a show-off thread is a liar.
That's right. And it all comes to down to cyberbullying and freedom to present. Because Jack and others have always sought to restrict my right to compare my work to others and speak of the benefits they have created this climate.
I can't help it if someone is heavily invested into a product and that product isn't that great. OF COURSE it would be in THEIR best interest if that product were never compared to any other product. But it's not in the best interest of the competitors who are making better products, nor is it in the interest of the consumers of those products to be in the dark as to which one really IS better and why.
The duplicity behind what you say is stunning. The reality is that you have trampled over other people's reputations and businesses to accomplish your goals. This is by your very own admission, as shown below:
Originally Posted by JB Cases
I am not saying that I was right or wrong on any topic. But I have handled things very very badly in the past. I have met hate with hate, met verbal violence with more verbal aggression, taken personal slurs to heart and tried to dole out even nastier ones.
Mike banished me for six months for making what I thought was a fairly innocent comment about people obviously wanting to fight and fighting being allowed on AZB for the most part. Whether that lengthy ban was warranted for that comment or not I still did plenty of attacking in the past that warranted a lengthy ban.
I came to the conclusion that whether I am right or not when I go-off on someone then no one cares who was right. The topic is then lost and it becomes only name calling and insults. And I have to say that when the adrenaline gets going then it's addictive to want to get in the best zingers.
But it's not productive. At all. Maybe entertaining on some level but ultimately sad and hurtful. Believe it or not I am a peaceful person and I don't hold grudges. A few years ago I tried to eliminate the word hate from my vocabulary and not even use it casually as in I hate red pool cues. It's time to do that again.
I have been in this business for 25 years. I started selling cues as a teenager. I started making cue cases when I was 23 years old. I have been extremely lucky in my life to have been able to travel the world with this sport. I have tried to share those experiences where relevant on these forums. To that end I do think I have put up a lot of good content.
Unfortunately I spoiled a lot of it with the mean-spirited and nasty fights I have been in.
So for that I want to apologize.
------------------------------------------------------------
To the forum. I am sorry for subjecting you all to my tirades and rants when I felt I was only defending myself. I was often way out of line.
To Mike Howerton: You are one of my oldest friends in this business and I apologize for having been a huge headache to you.
Joe Van Buren: I am sorry that I did not respond professionally to your comments. Where I have been out of line and met your insults with more personal attacks I am truly sorry for that.
Jack Justis: No matter what I think about how you slighted me I had no grounds to wage an all-out campaign against you. We make leather bags not nuclear missiles. Again, I am very sorry about my actions towards you.
Monstermash (sorry don't know your name): I am sorry that I took personal offense at your actions and went on the offensive against you. You deserved a professional and courteous response to anything you said and did rather than a heated and emotional over the top one.
Snipershot: I have no idea what it is I that I did that made you threaten to kill me but I apologize for whatever I said to you that caused that reaction.
Craig Rittel: We have long resolved our differences but I still owe you a public apology for the level of argument that I took it to.
Michael Lalumiere: Although I unfortunately still harbor some major resentment against you I want to apologize for allowing myself to escalate our fights to unreasonable levels.
Eric Hu: I am sorry that I didn't just let your comments slide and took them personally. I should be tougher and not take your ribbing to heart.
Bobby Chamberlain: I apologize for going after you. You were only defending your friend and I wrapped you up in the general animosity I was feeling. I should have responded to your comments professionally and courteously.
Dave Wilson: Your job is tough and I apologize for making it tougher.
Ok, well I am sure I will remember more later or possibly those who feel I owe them an apology will let me know. In any case the bottom line is this. No matter what the topic is it can always be discussed and debated without personal insults. When those insults happen though they don't have to be met with even more insults.
I know that now. That doesn't mean that I won't ever want to go off on someone if they are being deliberately mean. Inside I want to but I understand that I need to keep it professional.
So again, to the forum, thank you for indulging and tolerating me and I do sincerely apologize for subjecting you to my bad side in the past. All I can really say is to use the only quote from Thomas Wayne that resonates with me at the core, "passion is a hard thing to conceal".
John Barton
I am not saying that I was right or wrong on any topic. But I have handled things very very badly in the past. I have met hate with hate, met verbal violence with more verbal aggression, taken personal slurs to heart and tried to dole out even nastier ones.
Mike banished me for six months for making what I thought was a fairly innocent comment about people obviously wanting to fight and fighting being allowed on AZB for the most part. Whether that lengthy ban was warranted for that comment or not I still did plenty of attacking in the past that warranted a lengthy ban.
I came to the conclusion that whether I am right or not when I go-off on someone then no one cares who was right. The topic is then lost and it becomes only name calling and insults. And I have to say that when the adrenaline gets going then it's addictive to want to get in the best zingers.
But it's not productive. At all. Maybe entertaining on some level but ultimately sad and hurtful. Believe it or not I am a peaceful person and I don't hold grudges. A few years ago I tried to eliminate the word hate from my vocabulary and not even use it casually as in I hate red pool cues. It's time to do that again.
I have been in this business for 25 years. I started selling cues as a teenager. I started making cue cases when I was 23 years old. I have been extremely lucky in my life to have been able to travel the world with this sport. I have tried to share those experiences where relevant on these forums. To that end I do think I have put up a lot of good content.
Unfortunately I spoiled a lot of it with the mean-spirited and nasty fights I have been in.
So for that I want to apologize.
------------------------------------------------------------
To the forum. I am sorry for subjecting you all to my tirades and rants when I felt I was only defending myself. I was often way out of line.
To Mike Howerton: You are one of my oldest friends in this business and I apologize for having been a huge headache to you.
Joe Van Buren: I am sorry that I did not respond professionally to your comments. Where I have been out of line and met your insults with more personal attacks I am truly sorry for that.
Jack Justis: No matter what I think about how you slighted me I had no grounds to wage an all-out campaign against you. We make leather bags not nuclear missiles. Again, I am very sorry about my actions towards you.
Monstermash (sorry don't know your name): I am sorry that I took personal offense at your actions and went on the offensive against you. You deserved a professional and courteous response to anything you said and did rather than a heated and emotional over the top one.
Snipershot: I have no idea what it is I that I did that made you threaten to kill me but I apologize for whatever I said to you that caused that reaction.
Craig Rittel: We have long resolved our differences but I still owe you a public apology for the level of argument that I took it to.
Michael Lalumiere: Although I unfortunately still harbor some major resentment against you I want to apologize for allowing myself to escalate our fights to unreasonable levels.
Eric Hu: I am sorry that I didn't just let your comments slide and took them personally. I should be tougher and not take your ribbing to heart.
Bobby Chamberlain: I apologize for going after you. You were only defending your friend and I wrapped you up in the general animosity I was feeling. I should have responded to your comments professionally and courteously.
Dave Wilson: Your job is tough and I apologize for making it tougher.
Ok, well I am sure I will remember more later or possibly those who feel I owe them an apology will let me know. In any case the bottom line is this. No matter what the topic is it can always be discussed and debated without personal insults. When those insults happen though they don't have to be met with even more insults.
I know that now. That doesn't mean that I won't ever want to go off on someone if they are being deliberately mean. Inside I want to but I understand that I need to keep it professional.
So again, to the forum, thank you for indulging and tolerating me and I do sincerely apologize for subjecting you to my bad side in the past. All I can really say is to use the only quote from Thomas Wayne that resonates with me at the core, "passion is a hard thing to conceal".
John Barton
LOL! JB left Justis in the dust a long time ago!
In all reality, JB's Justis replica case should cost more than the original. It will outlive and have a superior interior.
A Justis case has never stood out to me, and the price is large! They all look the same, just some minor changes. For that amount of money I would prefer a custom case.
This thread has been an epic fail for the OP. It will probably lead a 100 people to buy a quality case at an unreal price. And will probably deter 20 customers from buying cases from his hero.
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