Questions about instructors

[ScottK]

First, even though there are, generally, no physical limitations in pool, there are varying degrees of natural ability. For those with less natural ability more work is required to reach higher levels. There are, quite likely, many very knowledgeable instructors who, for whatever reason, do not have the time nor the inclination to put in the amount of work it would take to reach pro speed. They very well may also have neither the time nor inclination to involve themselves in tournament play.

Assuming we're talking about instructors affiliated with an organization like the PBIA (formerly BCA) or ACS they are likely providing accurate information to their students. Depending on their level of certification, playing ability, and experience they may or may not have much to offer a player of much greater ability than their own. However, it is quite likely they can offer something, even if it's the contact information of another instructor better suited to help said player progress.

 

[Banks]

I'm waiting for testimonial from an open/pro player who have benefited from lessons taught by a B player.

-roger

Oh, I thought you said A learning froma B before.

Ever read The Inner Game of Tennis? I'd think there are some open/pro speed players that have. I wonder how well the author plays pool.

 

[backplaying]

I will chime in, being a "new" instructor this year. I would have agreed with you until I got my certification in January. I had many people asking me to teach them (and their kids), so I figured hey you know what... I am going to get a formal lesson so I could make sure what I was telling them was correct - because true enough I could get them to a certain level, but was I also causing them to be limited by my own ability?

Now, I know exactly what to look for in a player. I know how to tell them to fix what they are doing to cause inconsistency. Once consistent, then competition is the method to hone the skills developed. I can't help you aim, I can't help you cope with pressure, and I can't help your hand-eye coordination.

So why a teacher instead of a super strong player? They don't know how to convey. They likely never thought of it if they are a natural. Or they have become so good at overcoming bad habits that if they taught anyone, it would be detrimental.

I can say this, anyone who has taken a lesson would not think their instructors ability level impedes their future. Take a lesson, from anyone to find out more about yourself as a player. I am so glad I did, because now I know what to work on to really improve. Before I really didn't understand why I was stuck on a plateau.

What level do you play at?

 

[buddha162]

Oh, I thought you said A learning froma B before.

I'll take that as a start.

Ever read The Inner Game of Tennis? I'd think there are some open/pro speed players that have. I wonder how well the author plays pool.

I find these analogies to other sports rather worthless for reasons already mentioned.

-roger

 

[ScottK]

I find these analogies to other sports rather worthless for reasons already mentioned.

-roger

You missed his point.

 

[dr_dave]

... Dr. Dave has on his site everything you need to know to become a pro pool player. All the necessary knowledge is there. That knowledge is worthless to anyone that does not utilize it. It takes the student learning the knowledge, then mastering the utilization of that knowledge through experience, his own experience. No instructor can pass on experience any more than you can to anyone else. All you can do is present the knowledge.

... But someone like Dr. Dave is providing raw data (hugely valuable raw data); he is not offering lessons. When you take lessons, you are paying the instructor to synthesize that information and apply it to your situation.

FYI, that is not true. I do offer private lessons through the Dr. Dave Pool School and group lessons through the Billiard University (BU) Summer School Boot Camp.

My point is simply that IF you are to receive in-person instruction, I don't see how an instructor who plays at a lower speed than you can possibly help your game by much, esp at the higher levels.

Someone who thinks this way probably won't learn anything from someone who doesn't above his or her level. However, a top instructor does not need to be a top player to dramatically help people that can play better than him or her. Again, people who don't agree with this should probably only seek instruction from professionally players and not professional instructors.

I personally have worked students who play better than I do, but they still sought and benefited from the instruction.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Masayoshi]

A good instructor can teach anyone of any skill level about mechanics, stroke, the optimum way to hit the ball even if they have never achieved pro speed.

On the other hand pool is not an acivity where improving in the physical aspects of the game yields great returns on overall skill. Most players who have reached a strong A level or better have sufficient stroke and understanding of mechanics to get them to where ever they want go beyond that.

From that point on, the vast majority of a player's improvement will be from experience, dealing with pressure, optimizing shot selection, honing position play, and just learning how to win in general. Most, if not all of those aspects, can only be learned by a player that has actually been there and done that. Because of this, learning from weaker players yields diminishing returns at some point in a player's career.

One of the aspects a lower level instructor can help a strong player in is diagnosis of problems should that player enter a slump. Often times it is difficult to objectively point out your own flaws. A third party who knows what to look for, such as an instructor, can be of great benefit to solving a short term problem, but as far as helping the stronger player improve beyond what he had at one point goes, I am skeptical.

 

[Neil]

FYI, that is not true. I do offer private lessons through the Dr. Dave Pool School and group lessons through the Billiard University (BU) Summer School Boot Camp.



Regards,
Dave

Dave, I have to disagree with you here. First, let me say that having an instructor in person is, at the minimum, at least twenty times easier than doing it on your own.

Now, on your site, you have fundamentals, aiming, position play, strategy, jump shots, safety play. Granted, it is not all spelled out such as step 1, step 2, ect. One will have to do a whole LOT of work on their own just using your site. But, everything they need is actually there. It may say that 1+1=2, and 2+2=4, and leave you to figure out that because of that, 2+1=3. You do need an analytical mind, but it is there. You also cover the huge fact that one also needs to spend countless hours mastering the basics, you cover the mental area enough to get someone on the right track mentally, and you also state that one really needs to play tough opponents to get seasoned.

So, if you left something out, I don't know what it is. Now, I totally agree that an instructor will shave years off that learning process of doing it totally on your own, or just from your sites info.

 

[Okie]

Dave, I have to disagree with you here. First, let me say that having an instructor in person is, at the minimum, at least twenty times easier than doing it on your own.

Now, on your site, you have fundamentals, aiming, position play, strategy, jump shots, safety play. Granted, it is not all spelled out such as step 1, step 2, ect. One will have to do a whole LOT of work on their own just using your site. But, everything they need is actually there. It may say that 1+1=2, and 2+2=4, and leave you to figure out that because of that, 2+1=3. You do need an analytical mind, but it is there. You also cover the huge fact that one also needs to spend countless hours mastering the basics, you cover the mental area enough to get someone on the right track mentally, and you also state that one really needs to play tough opponents to get seasoned.

So, if you left something out, I don't know what it is. Now, I totally agree that an instructor will shave years off that learning process of doing it totally on your own, or just from your sites info.

A person utilizing Dave's website would most definitely find anything there is to know about the game. I have used it on many occasions to enhance my knowledge of the game. But learning to play the game is a lot different than researching all there is to know about the game. Utilizing a knowledgeable instructor is the best way to improve your playing ability.

To be an effective instructor one must be knowledgeable, a good communicator, and observant. It is not required that an instructor be able to split the pocket on 100 shots in a row. That's just silly.

I am of the opinion that a good teacher knows what to teach, but great teacher knows what to not teach. There are some things which are best learned by doing.

Just my $.02

Ken

p.s. not really arguing with you Neil...actually I think I am agreeing with you. Your post just happened to be the last one up when I replied.

 

[Scott Lee]

Dave...Great post!...especially the highlighted sentence. All a good instructor can do is provide the student with the knowledge of what needs improvement, ways to measure that improvement, and diagnostic skills/tools that will allow them to evaluate and "fix" an error...after their new/improved process has become a habit. :thumbup:

We can't fix what we don't know about. We can't fix what we can't measure...and we can only 'fix' one thing at a time!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Awesome post.

Learning is the responsibility of the student.

A person can choose to be arrogant or humble in any situation.

Those who feel they have nothing to learn from someone never will.

Those who look for lessons everywhere will find them.

I've personally learned more from teaching people things than many people ever learn...on a variety of subjects ranging from math, physics, engineering, pool, foosball, wood turning, etc.. I've learned in all of these situations because I was helping a person who was worse at it than I and had a desire or need to improve.

Some keys to a good instructor (and I've had many) are an analytical mind, a methodical approach, a fair demeanor and a desire to see improvement in his students.

A good instructor doesn't necessarily make a person better; he may just give the person the tools to become better on his own.
Kinda like the old 'teach a man to fish' adage.

dld

 

[YubaCushion]

Thanks, Scott. Hopefully I'll catch up to you in the not-so-distant.

I've been thoroughly reminded of what good instruction is recently--I took up fly fishing this last weekend and have a very good friend teaching me. It is amazing the progress that can be seen when an instructor has the desire to see his students succeed and the patience to be kind and generous when they watch the student fail repeatedly.

To the OP:

Remember that every pro was taught every tool that they use to succeed. That may have been as little as which end of the cue to use, but everything they know leads back to an instructor of some sort--whether the instructor was paid, certified or even aware doesn't matter. What instructors do is offer a service of creating a method of learning.

I'll tell the story of one of the worst professors I had in engineering: This gentleman was the absolute nicest man a person could meet. It was like going to class taught by your grandfather--if your grandfather was among the coolest people you'd ever met. This was the first class in the mechanical engineering curriculum and I learned nothing from this man. Three years later I was in a class where we were required to use the school's mach 3 wind tunnel (very rare at the time for a school to have a supersonic wind tunnel open to undergraduate use). I was talking to my prof about the wind tunnel and learned that my first ME professor had designed and built that wind tunnel...decades earlier. The reason that my school had it is because he had retired from a prestigious school to move to Montana, where he had taken a new job. The school he left thanked him for his service and asked if he would like to take the wind tunnel with him (to be clear, this wind tunnel had about a 1-foot long useable tunnel and about 200 sq-ft footprint) because nobody else could keep it running. Turns out that this man was way up on the 'genius scale' and at one time was one of the top in the field of supersonic research. He could not teach a bunch of freshman anything about engineering, tho...that wasn't his strong point.

Edit: I just researched it, it wasn't a university, it was Ford that he got the wind tunnel from and had worked at.

dld

I don't want to wait, here's buddah's answer.
I don't want to hear any more examples that make sense. I don't want people answering my question, I want to be agreed with. WHERE IS THE PRO THAT LEARNED FROM THE SCRUB! HE DOESN'T EXIST! YOU ARE ALL WRONG, AND STUPID.

 

[bdorman]

I guess Muhammad Ali chose Angelo Dundee as his trainer because Dundee could beat him with one hand tied behind his back.

 

[BigBrother]

Now there is good reasons to lead to a possible cause for my lack of knowledge but i'lll skip that and get right to the point.

Why is it that instructors don't be in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? .

There is always new of a player gone coach or announcer in other sports but I have no knowledge of this in pool, of course with the very very few exceptions. Car companies started off racing to better show what there production cars can do in order to boost sales.

can someone shed some light on this matter for me please.

This what I got from the OP, not that coaches can't coach or instructors are pointless unless they spot GOD the 7 ball and the break

 

[YubaCushion]

I found out why buddha isn't satisfied with your answers. Quote from Buddha:

"Believe nothing no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense."
~ Buddha ~

 

[victorl]

Good posts guys...

Just like in any other sport, you can research and gather all the infomation you can find, but it takes talent, dedicated practice and proper coaching to become a truly good player. You could do it with just two out of the three, but it's not any easy road. Otherwise, you'll just become another know-it-all fan, like me.

Vic

 

[buddha162]

So far, 0 examples, tons of white noise.

Let's try this: to the instructors posting on azb (Fran, Scott Lee, Neil? Dave, Randy, etc)

What level do you play at?

What's the average level of play among your students?

What is the highest level student you have given instructions to, and if the student is an A/open level player, and you're a B level player, what aspects of the game did you help him with?

-roger

 

[buddha162]

Most, if not all of those aspects, can only be learned by a player that has actually been there and done that. Because of this, learning from weaker players yields diminishing returns at some point in a player's career.

One of the aspects a lower level instructor can help a strong player in is diagnosis of problems should that player enter a slump. Often times it is difficult to objectively point out your own flaws. A third party who knows what to look for, such as an instructor, can be of great benefit to solving a short term problem, but as far as helping the stronger player improve beyond what he had at one point goes, I am skeptical.

I think part of the problem is that 99% of effective instruction is done by instructors who are better players than their students, and that 1% comprise of players who are roughly at the same level. I have seen no evidence and cannot really imagine how a B player can give structured lessons to an A/open class player and have it be constructive. I'm not talking about a second pair of eyes to diagnose a stance problem, or head movement etc. I'm talking about hour long lessons from a B player to an A/open player that is actually going to help the latter's game improve.

This goes beyond an issue of credibility. I simply have a hard time imagining the mechanics of how it would work. What concrete scenarios can anyone here give me that would illustrate how a B player-instructor can improve the game of an A/open level student?

-roger

 

[Neil]

So far, 0 examples, tons of white noise.

Let's try this: to the instructors posting on azb (Fran, Scott Lee, Neil? Dave, Randy, etc)

What level do you play at?

What's the average level of play among your students?

What is the highest level student you have given instructions to, and if the student is an A/open level player, and you're a B level player, what aspects of the game did you help him with?

-roger

I'm an A level player. When I play a lot, an open player. Highest "student" I have helped would be Jason Kirkwood. Now, to be perfectly clear, I in now way take credit for his level of play. That was taught to him by others. I have shown him a few things he didn't know about though. And, for the record, I seldom actually teach anymore.

I don't know if the others are even going to bother to reply, but I do know that Scott and Randy have worked with some of the pros that are common names.

 

[Cory in DC]

I think part of the problem is that 99% of effective instruction is done by instructors who are better players than their students, and that 1% comprise of players who are roughly at the same level. I have seen no evidence and cannot really imagine how a B player can give structured lessons to an A/open class player and have it be constructive. I'm not talking about a second pair of eyes to diagnose a stance problem, or head movement etc. I'm talking about hour long lessons from a B player to an A/open player that is actually going to help the latter's game improve.

This goes beyond an issue of credibility. I simply have a hard time imagining the mechanics of how it would work. What concrete scenarios can anyone here give me that would illustrate how a B player-instructor can improve the game of an A/open level student?

-roger

For stroke mechanics--shot routine, alignment, and things like that (including tips on how to improve them)--I can see an instructor being valuable even if they are a B-speed player. E.g., an open-speed player could go to such an instructor and say, "I've been off a bit lately, can you check out my mechanics and see if you spot anything unusual?" Even better if the instructor has old video to do a comparison of the current stroke to the prior stroke. That sort of skill seems likely to come from thousands of hours watching and teaching pool mechanics, not playing in tournaments.

On the other hand, when it comes to what to do with the stroke then, yes, I think the instructor has to be better than the student. I don't want to know the patterns that a B player would play to get out (more precisely, I already know what a B player would do); I want to know what a better player would do and why. Similarly there are some stroke shots (think Corey Duel) that come up now and again that I doubt a B-level instructor could teach.

Possibly, there is so much disagreement because the answer depends on the question.

Cory

 

[backplaying]

A good instructor can teach anyone of any skill level about mechanics, stroke, the optimum way to hit the ball even if they have never achieved pro speed.

On the other hand pool is not an acivity where improving in the physical aspects of the game yields great returns on overall skill. Most players who have reached a strong A level or better have sufficient stroke and understanding of mechanics to get them to where ever they want go beyond that.

From that point on, the vast majority of a player's improvement will be from experience, dealing with pressure, optimizing shot selection, honing position play, and just learning how to win in general. Most, if not all of those aspects, can only be learned by a player that has actually been there and done that. Because of this, learning from weaker players yields diminishing returns at some point in a player's career.

One of the aspects a lower level instructor can help a strong player in is diagnosis of problems should that player enter a slump. Often times it is difficult to objectively point out your own flaws. A third party who knows what to look for, such as an instructor, can be of great benefit to solving a short term problem, but as far as helping the stronger player improve beyond what he had at one point goes, I am skeptical.

I agree. If I decided to get a instructor, I would want someone like CJ, Max, or at least one who has played as high or a higher speed than I played. I would want to understand their mental side to the game also. Most top players have little things they do to make certain outs easier. It is much tougher for a AA player who has been playing for over 15 years to make a jump, and I think it would take a instructor who played at a AA or higher level to achieve that jump, if possible. I also think the majority who have played for many years have a certain level they get too, and very few could ever get at a higher level regardless of the lessons they take. I think many instructors could teach beginners to A level players, even better than some top playing instructors. It would just depend on the instructor. Just my opinion.