Safes and Kicking More Important that pocketing balls

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
It seems to me after watching the last 5 major 10 ball tournaments that safes and kicking has become a lot more important than ball pocketing skills. This is why I think the no jump cue rule is the way to go in 10 ball. JMI that it make for a more skilled game. Also a 40 sec shot clock with 1 ext. a game would be good. Johnnyt
 
The only reason it's more important is because top pros are so good at pocketing balls and running out. It really is a game of inches. If you don't play a safe just perfectly or kick a ball in the right spot, it could easily mean a loss.

I agree about jump cues (even though I use one), but I think there should be one exception.

That is if a player makes an attempt to pocket a ball, misses, and lucks a safe. The incoming player should be allowed to use a jump cue if they want.
 
I disagree about the jump cue. It is a skill just like making a good safety. Lots of people can jump, but jumping well and making the shot and getting a good leave is a skill. I love watching someone jump with skill.
 
DanielDeTinne said:
I disagree about the jump cue. It is a skill just like making a good safety. Lots of people can jump, but jumping well and making the shot and getting a good leave is a skill. I love watching someone jump with skill.
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I agree here. Another thing a jump cue does is it makes people focus more on the quality of their safety. The safeties are better now because it's not just about creating distance and a blocker. Now you want to lock up to that blocker in order to keep the jump cue in your opponents case.
 
Johnnyt said:
It seems to me after watching the last 5 major 10 ball tournaments that safes and kicking has become a lot more important than ball pocketing skills. This is why I think the no jump cue rule is the way to go in 10 ball. JMI that it make for a more skilled game. Also a 40 sec shot clock with 1 ext. a game would be good. Johnnyt
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Couldn't agree more .Jump cues take allot away from the game ! It's all about selling products IMHO Should be outlawed from pool period
 
DanielDeTinne said:
I disagree about the jump cue. It is a skill just like making a good safety. Lots of people can jump, but jumping well and making the shot and getting a good leave is a skill. I love watching someone jump with skill.
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Sure itsa skill shot... To hit the ball but controlling whitey?? Yeah I dont know about all that. I would say 8/10 jumps Ive witnessed end in disaster. So yeah... Jump cues are great and I love it when my opponents use them. I know more than likely I will be shooting after they screw up.

Granted one thing..... The jump cue is most dangerous when the object is hanging in the pocket. If it aint then I like my odds
 
BeiberLvr said:
The only reason it's more important is because top pros are so good at pocketing balls and running out. It really is a game of inches. If you don't play a safe just perfectly or kick a ball in the right spot, it could easily mean a loss.

I agree about jump cues (even though I use one), but I think there should be one exception.

That is if a player makes an attempt to pocket a ball, misses, and lucks a safe. The incoming player should be allowed to use a jump cue if they want.
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I like that idea about jump cue when other guy gets lucky. I could live with that. Johnnyt
 
RunoutJJ said:
Sure itsa skill shot... To hit the ball but controlling whitey?? Yeah I dont know about all that. I would say 8/10 jumps Ive witnessed end in disaster. So yeah... Jump cues are great and I love it when my opponents use them. I know more than likely I will be shooting after they screw up.

Granted one thing..... The jump cue is most dangerous when the object is hanging in the pocket. If it aint then I like my odds
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Then the player jumping isn't good enough. If they are good then the odds are good that the shot will have a favorable result.
 
JB Cases said:
Then the player jumping isn't good enough. If they are good then the odds are good that the shot will have a favorable result.
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John even a world class player is 50/50 at best when it comes to jumping balls. They need to be banned. Learn how to kick your way out of trouble. Using controlled kicks aswell. Have you ever seen Efren jump?? I dont think I ever have...
 
I agree with the safes and kicking game being almost if not more important than pocketing skills. I've played people that scared the hell outta me every time I locked them up with what I thought was a good safe simply because I couldn't predict what they would come back at me with. I remember going back to my chair thinking " nailed ya didn't I!" Only to sit there and shake with fear knowing they were most likely going to kick me safe, and possibly even kick something in.

Dave
 
RunoutJJ said:
John even a world class player is 50/50 at best when it comes to jumping balls. They need to be banned. Learn how to kick your way out of trouble. Using controlled kicks aswell. Have you ever seen Efren jump?? I dont think I ever have...
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50/50 at what? Hitting the ball? Controlling the ball? Not selling out? Making the shot?

Let's assume that you're right and the pro is as good as is humanly possible and getting the desired outcome is 50/50 at best.

What does that tell you?

That's the task is TOUGH even with a jump cue. So why would you want to ban something that is obviously a difficult skill to master?

Yes Efren jumps. Why is this ALWAYS framed as an either/or proposition?

Kicking is part of the game that has to be mastered. Jumping is another part.

You say learn to kick but why do you assume that people who advocate for jump cues and jump shots don't know how to kick?
 
i am old school i think people would have to learn to kick safe and use the rail systems more if they couldnt pull out shorty and jump, maybe thats because i am not a great jumper....;p....i know lots of older players in my area that dont jump and they have won tons of tournaments over the years,so is it really that important. But i also have buddies that are deadly with it and it has saved their bacon a few times. I guess maybe i should practice my jumping more huh. I can jump a little but i am a rail systems man..
 
clearly this is one of those 'religion' topics where personal opinion is all that counts.. but -

Jumping is clearly a skill -

I've seen several people with WAY better than 50/50 odds jumping against me - and getting leaves with the jump

Kicking relies on a rail and adjusting for table speed which is in itself a skill but you can't just walk up to a table and know which rails play right etc. So kicking - in your average pool hall for your average player - is more of a luck shot than a jump. I can teach you to jump and the table doesn't have nearly the same impact (heavy cue ball has an impact of course).

As for time clocks - a necessary evil to keep the game moving but if you want a faster clock why stop at 40 seconds? It's like playing speed chess vs. playing regular chess - it is a variation on the game but it is different.

The objective of competition is to have the person with the best skills win. If jumping were truly random / luck then yes it should be removed but that isn't the case. Since it is a skill, and since the use of jump cues vastly reduces the odds of damaging a table, there isn't any logical reason to remove it from the game.

Craig
 
All pros can jump and all pros can kick. Just some are better than one or the other. Same with banking or cutting.

What a good player does is evaluate the situation and determine what the highest percentage outcome is. They are not bangers just jumping because it's the best chance not to foul.

They are calculating the chance of making the shot, getting safe, getting position, etc. If the kick gives them a higher %, then that is what they will do. If jumping gives them the better %, they will do that.

Simple.
 
Lucky_Lew66 said:
i am old school i think people would have to learn to kick safe and use the rail systems more if they couldnt pull out shorty and jump, maybe thats because i am not a great jumper....;p....i know lots of older players in my area that dont jump and they have won tons of tournaments over the years,so is it really that important. But i also have buddies that are deadly with it and it has saved their bacon a few times. I guess maybe i should practice my jumping more huh. I can jump a little but i am a rail systems man..
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Why not learn both?
 
JB Cases said:
50/50 at what? Hitting the ball? Controlling the ball? Not selling out? Making the shot?

Let's assume that you're right and the pro is as good as is humanly possible and getting the desired outcome is 50/50 at best.

What does that tell you?

That's the task is TOUGH even with a jump cue. So why would you want to ban something that is obviously a difficult skill to master?

Yes Efren jumps. Why is this ALWAYS framed as an either/or proposition?

Kicking is part of the game that has to be mastered. Jumping is another part.

You say learn to kick but why do you assume that people who advocate for jump cues and jump shots don't know how to kick?
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Jumping is definitely a skill. The point you're missing though is that jumping with a jump cue is much more easier than using a standard cue.

The main reason a player pulls out the jump cue is to get out of a safe, and the # 1 priority is getting over the impeding ball to make a legal hit.

A top pro using a jump cue is a huge favorite to at least accomplish that.
 
Johnnyt said:
It seems to me after watching the last 5 major 10 ball tournaments that safes and kicking has become a lot more important than ball pocketing skills. This is why I think the no jump cue rule is the way to go in 10 ball. JMI that it make for a more skilled game. Also a 40 sec shot clock with 1 ext. a game would be good. Johnnyt
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While safes and kicking abilities have become very, very important, they will never replace ball pocketing abilities. What you are seeing is the top pros having their ball pocketing skills so far up there that you are taking that skill for granted. Without superb ball pocketing skills, one can never win a match, let alone a tournament at the pro level.
 
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