Safes and Kicking More Important that pocketing balls

[hang-the-9]

I disagree about the jump cue. It is a skill just like making a good safety. Lots of people can jump, but jumping well and making the shot and getting a good leave is a skill. I love watching someone jump with skill.

Two different things, jump shots OK, trick jump cues NOT, that is what the general feeling is on here and also with the pro players. The pros just use them because they are allowed to, so they have to use them to keep on even ground with a guy they play that does use one. Most feel personally that the jump cue should be banned. Kicking and jumping with your playing cue is where the skill is.

I never use a jump cue, when I was playing around with my son's cheap jump/break cue (think I got it for $40) I was hopping over pretty much a full ball 100% of the time. He even asked me, "how can you jump so well when you never try jumps?", the reason is that those jump cues take away about 90% of the skill and practice you need to execute a jump shot with your playing cue.

I agree about the safety and kicks being very key at top levels, there was a great game between Reyes and Archer that involed a long safety battle on a hill hill game that took about 15 safety shots to finish. At one point there were 11 safeties played in a row. The game was decided by a ball hitting the point of a corner pocket instead of going in or going past the point on a 3 rail kick. If it went past the point by a mm it would have ended up safe, a mm the other way and it would have gone in.

 

[JB Cases]

Jumping is definitely a skill. The point you're missing though is that jumping with a jump cue is much more easier than using a standard cue.

The main reason a player pulls out the jump cue is to get out of a safe, and the # 1 priority is getting over the impeding ball to make a legal hit.

A top pro using a jump cue is a huge favorite to at least accomplish that.

Maybe you are not familiar with my history on this topic. I brought the Bunjee Jumper into the world and have hundreds of hours in demonstrating it and teaching people how to jump.

So of course I know that using a jump cue is easier than a full cue. That's not the point. Using chalk makes it easier to spin the cue ball. Chalk is available to everyone. Jump cues are available to everyone. The skill to spin the ball accurately is not given to you by chalk and the skill to jump accurately is not given to you by a jump cue. Those two items only make those actions, spin and jumping possible.

If anyone is using a jump cue just to make a hit then it's not much different than kicking to just make a hit. I can teach just about anyone to kick inside of five minutes. Inside an hour they will be hitting one rail, two rail and three rail kicks.

But how long will it take them to learn how to adjust to kick and hit the right side of the ball? Months? Years? It depends on how much they really practice kicking. It's taken me years of practice and studying how the pros do it to finally get somewhat decent at kicking with purpose. And as a result I can kick and put the cue ball where I want it more often now.

Same thing with jumping. When I knew I would need to demonstrate the Bunjee I locked myself in the shop and worked out everything that was possible with a jump cue. I learned how to stop the cue ball, how to jump at any distance, into tight spaces, on the rail, jump-masse shots, jump-kicks, follow shots. Basically I tried to figure out how to do everything one would do normally but with the added difficulty of a jump shot.

And I was successful and my demonstrations were all about showing that the jump cue is a pool cue that can do everything a pool cue can do while jumping.

So I do bristle a little bit when people say it takes the skill out or is a toy or prevents people from learning to kick. It's a tool made for one aspect of the game and it takes skill to use it properly. Anyone who doesn't take the time to develop that skill is only hurting themselves and cutting themselves off from a ton of shots that they could play.

And the same goes for kicking. Any player who wants to be good needs to be able to do both and also to know when the kick is the right shot and when the jump is the right shot.

 

[CreeDo]

The argument seems to be something like:

"Kicks and safes are more important than shotmaking"
"Therefore most of the skill in the match is in kicking"
"So let's ban jump cues so there's more kicking"

Some major problems with this thinking:

– Try saying shotmaking is less important after a few shots get missed.
It's easy for forget how difficult it is to just never miss, when we see pros make it look easy.
How many hours of practice time did they put into just making balls?
Ten times more than into safing and kicking, I bet.
Making balls will always be the most important thing.

– I notice when shane's playing people are always saying the break is the most important thing.
Maybe we should stop trying to act like the game can be boiled down to one skill.
You need a ton of different skills to play. Jumping and kicking are just two items on a long list.

– Even if controlled jumping were easy (it's not)... well, so are most safeties.
I don't necessarily deserve ball in hand because I softly rolled the cue ball forward behind another ball.
That's much easier than jumping.

– Who says we need a "more skilled game"?
Most players can't consistently run a wide open rack of 9 ball.
If the game were too easy, there wouldn't even BE any safeties, pros would just run out the set.
10b's not broken, we don't need to fix it.

 

[JB Cases]

Two different things, jump shots OK, trick jump cues NOT, that is what the general feeling is on here and also with the pro players. The pros just use them because they are allowed to, so they have to use them to keep on even ground with a guy they play that does use one. Most feel personally that the jump cue should be banned. Kicking and jumping with your playing cue is where the skill is.

I never use a jump cue, when I was playing around with my son's cheap jump/break cue (think I got it for $40) I was hopping over pretty much a full ball 100% of the time. He even asked me, "how can you jump so well when you never try jumps?", the reason is that those jump cues take away about 90% of the skill and practice you need to execute a jump shot with your playing cue.

I agree about the safety and kicks being very key at top levels, there was a great game between Reyes and Archer that involed a long safety battle on a hill hill game that took about 15 safety shots to finish. At one point there were 11 safeties played in a row. The game was decided by a ball hitting the point of a corner pocket instead of going in or going past the point on a 3 rail kick. If it went past the point by a mm it would have ended up safe, a mm the other way and it would have gone in.

The jump cue makes it easier to jump in the same way that chalk makes it easier to spin balls.

People say takes away 90% of the skill in jumping and I say that's nonsense.

I could hand you two full cues and with one of them you would look like the best jumper on earth and with the other one you would look like a rank beginner and unable to jump a quarter. What good is your skill when I hand you a full cue that you absolutely under no circumstances could ever dream of jumping a full ball with?

The fact is that jumping balls requires the right elevation AND a cue that's suited for the shot. Some full cues are great for jumping and if you have the ability there is a certain amount of shots you will be able to jump.

But with a jump cue you will be able to jump a much broader array of shots, shots not possible with any full cue. Provided you develop the skill to handle the tool consistently. All the jump cue does, like chalk, is increase the amount of possible shots. And like chalk it does not do the shooting, you do.

 

[JB Cases]

The argument seems to be something like:

"Kicks and safes are more important than shotmaking"
"Therefore most of the skill in the match is in kicking"
"So let's ban jump cues so there's more kicking"

Some major problems with this thinking:

– Try saying shotmaking is less important after a few shots get missed.
It's easy for forget how difficult it is to just never miss, when we see pros make it look easy.
How many hours of practice time did they put into just making balls?
Ten times more than into safing and kicking, I bet.
Making balls will always be the most important thing.

– I notice when shane's playing people are always saying the break is the most important thing.
Maybe we should stop trying to act like the game can be boiled down to one skill.
You need a ton of different skills to play. Jumping and kicking are just two items on a long list.

– Even if controlled jumping were easy (it's not)... well, so are most safeties.
I don't necessarily deserve ball in hand because I softly rolled the cue ball forward behind another ball.
That's much easier than jumping.

– Who says we need a "more skilled game"?
Most players can't consistently run a wide open rack of 9 ball.
If the game were too easy, there wouldn't even BE any safeties, pros would just run out the set.
10b's not broken, we don't need to fix it.

Tap tap tap dancing for this post.

 

[Black-Balled]

I didn't read the below, but I agree.:wink:

The argument seems to be something like:

"Kicks and safes are more important than shotmaking"
"Therefore most of the skill in the match is in kicking"
"So let's ban jump cues so there's more kicking"

Some major problems with this thinking:

– Try saying shotmaking is less important after a few shots get missed.
It's easy for forget how difficult it is to just never miss, when we see pros make it look easy.
How many hours of practice time did they put into just making balls?
Ten times more than into safing and kicking, I bet.
Making balls will always be the most important thing.

– I notice when shane's playing people are always saying the break is the most important thing.
Maybe we should stop trying to act like the game can be boiled down to one skill.
You need a ton of different skills to play. Jumping and kicking are just two items on a long list.

– Even if controlled jumping were easy (it's not)... well, so are most safeties.
I don't necessarily deserve ball in hand because I softly rolled the cue ball forward behind another ball.
That's much easier than jumping.

– Who says we need a "more skilled game"?
Most players can't consistently run a wide open rack of 9 ball.
If the game were too easy, there wouldn't even BE any safeties, pros would just run out the set.
10b's not broken, we don't need to fix it.

 

[hang-the-9]

If anyone is using a jump cue just to make a hit then it's not much different than kicking to just make a hit. I can teach just about anyone to kick inside of five minutes. Inside an hour they will be hitting one rail, two rail and three rail kicks.

Grady Mathews said exactly the opposite of this, he said he can show any new player how to jump with a jump cue in minutes but it takes years to learn to kick.

Earl Stickland, who pretty much developed the jump shot as a skilled shot, hates jump cues.

A trick jump cue makes shots that would be impossible with a regular cue possible, it does not just make jump shots easier. It's silly to play a safe and have someone jump a full ball from 6" away from it. What's the point of playing a safe then? So any dope that can spend $50 on a twig can look cool because he can jump a ball? Especially if that dope hooked himself on a bad position play. And I'm often that dope myself hehe. I just don't use a jump cue for an easy way out of my own mistake.

I have no idea why there are no strict rules about cue length and weight, they are way too lax. The pro events just need to say "56-62 inch length and 17-24oz" and it will take away that whole novelty cue use out of the picture.

 

[Black-Balled]

Your conclusion requires the belief that any jump is a successdful one. not even close to true.

Grady Mathews said exactly the opposite of this, he said he can show any new player how to jump with a jump cue in minutes but it takes years to learn to kick.

Earl Stickland, who pretty much developed the jump shot as a skilled shot, hates jump cues.

A trick jump cue makes shots that would be impossible with a regular cue possible, it does not just make jump shots easier. It's silly to play a safe and have someone jump a full ball from 6" away from it. What's the point of playing a safe then? So any dope that can spend $50 on a twig can look cool because he can jump a ball? Especially if that dope hooked himself on a bad position play. And I'm often that dope myself hehe. I just don't use a jump cue for an easy way out of my own mistake.

I have no idea why there are no strict rules about cue length and weight, they are way too lax. The pro events just need to say "56-62 inch length and 17-24oz" and it will take away that whole novelty cue use out of the picture.

 

[JB Cases]

Grady Mathews said exactly the opposite of this, he said he can show any new player how to jump with a jump cue in minutes but it takes years to learn to kick.

Grady was wrong. He also taught people in minutes. You can show any halfway decent player how to jump with a jump cue in minutes. So what? How long will it take them to learn how to jump a six foot distance into a six inch space? It took me about a month to figure that one out and be able to hit it somewhat consistently.

Earl Stickland, who pretty much developed the jump shot as a skilled shot, hates jump cues.

And he is a hypocrite because all during the Cuetec years he would use a shorter cue for a lot of the jump shots that he knew he could not make using a full cue. Not 41" jump cue length bu about 54" which still makes it way easier to jump. He got all this praise for full cue jumps when in fact a lot of them were done with his "jump cue" which just happened to be longer than the very short ones.

A trick jump cue makes shots that would be impossible with a regular cue possible, it does not just make jump shots easier. It's silly to play a safe and have someone jump a full ball from 6" away from it. What's the point of playing a safe then? So any dope that can spend $50 on a twig can look cool because he can jump a ball? Especially if that dope hooked himself on a bad position play. And I'm often that dope myself hehe. I just don't use a jump cue for an easy way out of my own mistake.

Really? So is it also silly to play safe and leave an easy kick shot? Why didn't you play a better safe and cut off the kick? If you aren't using jump cues when they are legal then you are handicapping yourself which of course is your right to do. I really don't know where this whole notion of there only being one cue allowed comes from. No matter what you use it's still you controlling the cue. If you want to show me some real skill let's see you play without chalk and without a leather tip.

I wonder how the pros felt back in the day when a guy showed up with chalk. All of the sudden he could make more shots and play position better and do all these wild shots....I wonder if they condemned him for using chalk and said chalk should be banned and anyone with real skill plays without the "magical twisting powder".

or

Did they embrace it and suddenly the very best players of the day got way better with a million now shots open to them?

I think you know the answer to that.

I have no idea why there are no strict rules about cue length and weight, they are way too lax. The pro events just need to say "56-62 inch length and 17-24oz" and it will take away that whole novelty cue use out of the picture.

There are strict rules. The rules were enacted in the mid 90s and have worked fine from then until now. Only in the USA is there a raging debate. In China and Taiwan for example jump cues are provided by the house for anyone to use. Thus no player here feels stigmatized or made to feel guilty for using them. And the players here learn to jump AND kick.

 

[hang-the-9]

Grady was wrong. He also taught people in minutes. You can show any halfway decent player how to jump with a jump cue in minutes. So what? How long will it take them to learn how to jump a six foot distance into a six inch space? It took me about a month to figure that one out and be able to hit it somewhat consistently.



And he is a hypocrite because all during the Cuetec years he would use a shorter cue for a lot of the jump shots that he knew he could not make using a full cue. Not 41" jump cue length bu about 54" which still makes it way easier to jump. He got all this praise for full cue jumps when in fact a lot of them were done with his "jump cue" which just happened to be longer than the very short ones.



Really? So is it also silly to play safe and leave an easy kick shot? Why didn't you play a better safe and cut off the kick? If you aren't using jump cues when they are legal then you are handicapping yourself which of course is your right to do. I really don't know where this whole notion of there only being one cue allowed comes from. No matter what you use it's still you controlling the cue. If you want to show me some real skill let's see you play without chalk and without a leather tip.

I wonder how the pros felt back in the day when a guy showed up with chalk. All of the sudden he could make more shots and play position better and do all these wild shots....I wonder if they condemned him for using chalk and said chalk should be banned and anyone with real skill plays without the "magical twisting powder".

or

Did they embrace it and suddenly the very best players of the day got way better with a million now shots open to them?

I think you know the answer to that.



There are strict rules. The rules were enacted in the mid 90s and have worked fine from then until now. Only in the USA is there a raging debate. In China and Taiwan for example jump cues are provided by the house for anyone to use. Thus no player here feels stigmatized or made to feel guilty for using them. And the players here learn to jump AND kick.

I've watched a lot of Earl's matches and I don't think I have ever seen him switch cues to jump, especially in the older videos from the 80s 90s and 2000s.

The chalk thing, it's almost a valid point, but then you have a totally different game without it. It allows you to hit the cueball at speed and with spin consistantly, and is an aid to your equipment, not a replacement. I've yet to hear a pro player say they would be OK with chalk not being allowed, yet most interviews where a pro gets asked if they would be OK with banning all jump cues, they say they would agree to that.

For safety play, kicking is the skilled shot, not a jump done with a trick cue. I have nothing agaist a jump shot, if done with your playing cue. If you can't do something with your playing cue, you should not be allowed to do it using a specialty cue, outside of trick shots.

It's a cheap way out basically, like paying off a judge if you are rich to get away with something you normally would not.

 

[hang-the-9]

Your conclusion requires the belief that any jump is a successdful one. not even close to true.

If you are talking about just making it over a ball, then you're right, you still have to hit the object ball. But actually jumping over a ball is a pretty big part of this LOL. What I'm saying is that if a player can't do something with his regular cue, he/she should not be going to a trick cue to execute a shot.

 

[JB Cases]

I've watched a lot of Earl's matches and I don't think I have ever seen him switch cues to jump, especially in the older videos from the 80s 90s and 2000s.

That's because he doesn't switch cues overtly. I first saw him use the shorter on in person at a tournament in Chicago and I was like what? Earl is using a shorter cue to jump with?? So I went and looked at his cues and sure enough he was using a shorter version of his playing cue to jump with. But here is the trick. When he has a jump shot that he knows he will need the shorter cue he mostly just comes from the chair with that cue already in his hand so most people, even the announcers aren't aware that he is using a different cue.

After I saw it I went back and started looking for video evidence. Somewhere on here I linked to a bunch of videos, did frame captures and showed it clearly.

The chalk thing, it's almost a valid point, but then you have a totally different game without it. It allows you to hit the cueball at speed and with spin consistantly, and is an aid to your equipment, not a replacement. I've yet to hear a pro player say they would be OK with chalk not being allowed, yet most interviews where a pro gets asked if they would be OK with banning all jump cues, they say they would agree to that.

Then the pros should lobby to get the rules changed if that's how they feel. I have been to several player's meetings at WPA events and never once have I heard even one pro object to jump cues.

For safety play, kicking is the skilled shot, not a jump done with a trick cue. I have nothing agaist a jump shot, if done with your playing cue. If you can't do something with your playing cue, you should not be allowed to do it using a specialty cue, outside of trick shots.

Really? So if I teach an APA 3 to kick one and tow rails using a super simple method that guarantees almost 100% contact then it's skill? If all she has to do is measure correctly and then hit the cue ball in a straight line that's more skilled than judging the proper angle to hit down onto the cue ball with the proper speed to not only clear the blocking ball but to land the cue ball in the space available and not only hit the object ball but keep the balls on the table? That's less skill than a simple kick shot?

I will bet on that all day every day against anyone who thinks simple kick shots are harder than jump shots. Again though, why is it always an either or proposition?

Both shots are part of the game. Both are skill shots. Both are awesome when done right and disastrous when they go wrong. Jump shots are constantly crowd favorites in tournaments of the highest caliber attended by knowledgeable audiences.

It's a cheap way out basically, like paying off a judge if you are rich to get away with something you normally would not.

Not quite. If you or anyone else wants to have a little contest we can do some skill shots using a jump cue. I am willing to bet $100 per shot that I can make shots that you can't if you think jumping is so easy. And when you have had enough of that you can have the same bet doing kick shots for $100 a shot. It's not one vs. the other - both are skill shots.

If you ban the jump cue then ban the jump shot along with it. And ban all those shafts that claim to allow players to be more accurate and get more spin. If those claims are true then it's unfair if I have a shaft that allows me to get 25% more spin than you. Also ban those tips that make claims of better performance and that chalk as well.

In fact everyone should play with a one piece house cue with a le pro tip out of the box. And to be more fair both players should have to play with the SAME cue. Then we will see who has the skills

 

[Mikey Town]

Down with jump cues! I can't stand the things... They are the devil!

I am also a big advocate against:
Phenolic Tips
Layered Tips
Low Deflection Shafts
Chalk that costs more the 5 cents per cube
Any pool table smaller than a 10 footer
Graphite Shafts in golf
Instant Replay in any sport
Computers, in general
Hybrid Vehicles
Smart Phones
Women's Right to Vote

Innovation and evolution are terrible for the world... I don't understand why anyone would ever want anything to change... Ever.

Stupid jump cues...

 

[hang-the-9]

Down with jump cues! I can't stand the things... They are the devil!

I am also a big advocate against:
Phenolic Tips
Layered Tips
Low Deflection Shafts
Chalk that costs more the 5 cents per cube
Any pool table smaller than a 10 footer
Graphite Shafts in golf
Instant Replay in any sport
Computers, in general
Hybrid Vehicles
Smart Phones
Women's Right to Vote

Innovation and evolution are terrible for the world... I don't understand why anyone would ever want anything to change... Ever.

Stupid jump cues...

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I don't play pool because it's an easy game, nor do I want to make it easier for me aside from me actually learning to play better. There are some aids in sports or other areas that are not allowed even if they are new and will make things easier. Chess players don't take out their smartphones and look up a database of moves when they are playing, there was even a new swimsuit that was banned because they made things too fast. You can have some funky ground effects on race cars but it's very controlled so as to keep things even and let the driver have some part in the victory.

We could all play on 5.5" pockets with laser sight aiming on our cues if the goal is to make things easier.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Earl is using a shorter cue to jump with??.

Even if Earl used one for every shot he encounters, still does not mean he agrees with it, and would give it up happily if it was done a way with.

Billiards is actually to be played ON a slate surface. And as a player, Grady is right, it takes much much more time to learn how to kick correctly than it does to jump a ball.

10b's not broken, we don't need to fix it.

I guess if you feel that having only say what 500-1000 viewers to a 10 ball match is a good thing, than it is not broken. 10 ball would never be a game for ESPN or the like cable network. If it were, it would be so chopped up you would see the first game and instantly be taken to the last 3 to fit it in their time slots. I love watching pool, and find even myself bored by it after say an hour.

 

[TrumanHW]

Kicking and safeties have become of exaggerated importance as a product of everyone synching the pocket size down. If breaking a ball out (which usually results in sacrificing position to do so) and making the tough follow up shot were more reasonable, then the value of safeties and kicking would go down to the value it held in the 90s.

Unfortunately, people kick well and luck just has that knack of punishing the original safety player such that once you allow your opponent to the table you often don't get rewarded for a seemingly logical decision and well executed safe.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

the value of safeties and kicking would go down to the value it held in the 90s.

I guess you missed the late 80s and 90s when Efren schooled everyone due to his masterful kicking, before everyone caught on to what he was doing?

It had no value because no one knew how to do it like Efren back then. Why don't you ask Efren the value of kicking in the 90s? lol

 

[TrumanHW]

I guess you missed the late 80s and 90s when Efren schooled everyone due to his masterful kicking, before everyone caught on to what he was doing?

It had no value because no one knew how to do it like Efren back then. Why don't you ask Efren the value of kicking in the 90s? lol

Uh, yeah. Totally missed it. lol

If people can string 4's and 5's then safeties aren't quite as valuable. If people can luck balls in, then safeties aren't quite as valuable. If breaking a ball out and pocketing the subsequent ball is practical then people will not play safe as often. If the pockets are bigger and you aren't playing call shot, then little things like slow-rolling up to a ball that would leave them a combo down the long rail loses some value as well. I could go on and on.... but really, just watch any modern race to 9 vs. the era of the sands regency and you'll see how long the matches last. With time alone you can infer that fewer safes are played and more run-outs occur.

Of course kicking well is going to be better than kicking poorly. And I derive great pleasure from watching people do it... but Efren's edge was always bigger on tighter pockets where turnovers were predictable.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Uh, yeah. Totally missed it. lol

If people can string 4's and 5's then safeties aren't quite as valuable. If people can luck balls in, then safeties aren't quite as valuable. If breaking a ball out and pocketing the subsequent ball is practical then people will not play safe as often. If the pockets are bigger and you aren't playing call shot, then little things like slow-rolling up to a ball that would leave them a combo down the long rail loses some value as well. I could go on and on.... but really, just watch any modern race to 9 vs. the era of the sands regency and you'll see how long the matches last. With time alone you can infer that fewer safes are played and more run-outs occur.

Of course kicking well is going to be better than kicking poorly. And I derive great pleasure from watching people do it... but Efren's edge was always bigger on tighter pockets where turnovers were predictable.

Well I hope there is no one out there that would insinuate safeties and kicking is more important than pocketing balls, as it is not and never would be. Even if you kicked like a mule, you could not win without pocketing a ball. Even if you kicked it in, it is still pocketing balls.

But in the early 90s, Efren had the advantage on any table in that respect, tight or large pockets. It was a major asset for Efren, but he still needed to pocket balls to win.

I watch the Sand Regency matches more often than the new 10 ball stuff. As it is much more enjoyable to watch, for me.

Speaking of the Sands Regency, have you seen the one of Efren kicking a ball in on Earl and subsequently winning the match when it was hill/hill? That shows the importance of a great knowledgeable kicking game.

 

[TrumanHW]

Speaking of the Sands Regency, have you seen the one of Efren kicking a ball in on Earl and subsequently winning the match when it was hill/hill? That shows the importance of a great knowledgeable kicking game.

Who hasn't..?

I agree that kicking is vital. If you can't kick well (hitting balls in the middle of the table or off awkward angles) then it's difficult to beat a B player. You HAVE to kick well. You HAVE to play lock up safeties.... distance, obstacles, and keeping the OB away from pockets and either in the middle of the table or near other obstructions.