Ball cleaning drama, Round 2

CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Corey vs. Justin, Corey's running out and makes a position error trying to pound the CB across the table.
He allllmost has the 10 to bail him out, but another ball is just enough in the way so that he can't cut it.

The only way to make it is to not only throw it with maximum
outside spin, but even masse the cue ball a hair. He looks at it
for a while and then says "can I get a ref?"

He then asks that the cue ball be cleaned.

Justin is very unhappy with this and kinda micromanages
the cleaning to make sure the ball goes back exactly where it was before.
Billy I is convinced it's a move and Corey's hoping
the ball comes back to a more favorable spot.

I dunno if that's the case or not but he was kinda smiling and laughing about it.
Maybe just because it's funny to see Justin throwing yellow flags left and right.
Billy I was also laughing about it but saying the ref should refuse in these tight situations.

To my eyes it looks like Ken S. was triple careful and it went back perfectly.
With those ball markers I don't see it being an issue unless the ref has shaky hands.

Corey made the ball and went on to win.
At least nobody forfeit.

Oh - the funny part... corey gets stuck to another ball after his next shot,
and jokes "can I get it cleaned again?"
 
Last edited:
CreeDo said:
Corey vs. Justin, Corey's running out and makes a position error trying to pound the CB across the table.
He allllmost has the 10 to bail him out, but another ball is just enough in the way so that he can't cut it.

The only way to make it is to not only throw it with maximum
outside spin, but even masse the cue ball a hair. He looks at it
for a while and then says "can I get a ref?"

He then asks that the cue ball be cleaned.

Justin is very unhappy with this and kinda micromanages
the cleaning to make sure the ball goes back exactly where it was before.
Billy I is convinced it's a move and Corey's hoping
the ball comes back to a more favorable spot.

I dunno if that's the case or not but he was kinda smiling and laughing about it.
Maybe just because it's funny to see Justin throwing yellow flags left and right.
Billy I was also laughing about it but saying the ref should refuse in these tight situations.

To my eyes it looks like Ken S. was triple careful and it went back perfectly.
With those ball markers I don't see it being an issue unless the ref has shaky hands.

Corey made the ball and went on to win.
At least nobody forfeit.

Oh - the funny part... corey gets stuck to another ball after his next shot,
and jokes "can I get it cleaned again?"
Click to expand...

And Joey A has a thread about players calling a foul on themselves while these shenanigans are going on?
 
"Deal with it until the next rack" seems like a much better, and simpler, rule than having a ref clean the cue.

The only time mid-game cleaning makes any sense to me is in straight pool, on the break shot.
 
CreeDo said:
With those ball markers I don't see it being an issue unless the ref has shaky hands.
Click to expand...

One of the pro refs does have hand tremors. I won't out them because I like playing one pocket with them. It's not terrible, and that's what the ball marker is there for.

In snooker they can actually show the table display on an overlay of the current table's picture to get ball positions exact.
 
I think the important thing is that the rule is consistent.
Rules work best when there's no judgment calls, and the ref isn't required to be a mindreader.


You don't want the ref having to guess "is this player just worried about a skid? Or is this a move?"
That really shouldn't be part of his job. His only job should be to enforce rules.
If he has to make a judgment call, it should be about physics,
stuff like "did the call hit the 7 first, or the 11?" not stuff like
"does corey seem like a nice guy or is he trying to cheat?"

Just make it black and white. Either players can request balls to be cleaned, or they can't.

If they can, then they always can, not "Well they can unless the ref thinks it might be a move
and the lie of the balls is kind of delicate so maybe we should force them to shoot if he considers
this a funny situation."

In this case the TD showed that it's entirely possible to handle this delicate cue ball position
without any issues. Whether corey was hoping for a more favorable cue ball position shouldn't
even matter. We don't change rules based on what a player hopes for. The ref always has the
sportsmanship foul in his back pocket if he feels someone is exploiting a rule to gain an unfair advantage.
 
CreeDo said:
I think the important thing is that the rule is consistent.
Rules work best when there's no judgment calls, and the ref isn't required to be a mindreader.


You don't want the ref having to guess "is this player just worried about a skid? Or is this a move?"
That really shouldn't be part of his job. His only job should be to enforce rules.
If he has to make a judgment call, it should be about physics,
stuff like "did the call hit the 7 first, or the 11?" not stuff like
"does corey seem like a nice guy or is he trying to cheat?"

Just make it black and white. Either players can request balls to be cleaned, or they can't.

If they can, then they always can, not "Well they can unless the ref thinks it might be a move
and the lie of the balls is kind of delicate so maybe we should force them to shoot if he considers
this a funny situation."

In this case the TD showed that it's entirely possible to handle this delicate cue ball position
without any issues. Whether corey was hoping for a more favorable cue ball position shouldn't
even matter. We don't change rules based on what a player hopes for. The ref always has the
sportsmanship foul in his back pocket if he feels someone is exploiting a rule to gain an unfair advantage.
Click to expand...


The ref steps to the table and asks himself. Am I a moron? Can I use a ball marker properly? What if I am an idiot and screw this up? Shit I better call unsportsmanlike conduct to mask the fact that I can't do my job.

You guys... too funny.
 
How about some sort of a modified rule where the player can request the CB to be cleaned so long as his or her opponent doesn't have an objection for a legitimate reason, the most obvious of which is in a circumstance where the CB is thousands of an inch from being safe on another ball or the point. And, only once per rack at the most.
 
I think if there is something foreign on the ball that may cause something external to the shot to effect the outcome, asking it to be cleaned is no issue. Maybe a rule where you can only have one request per/match similar to the 1 extension per game rule for timed shots.

Point is, players will always find a way to use the rules to their advantage. The player in that moment NOT using the rule will always have an issue with it beause they feel it to be unfair. Bottom line is the ref is supposed to be an impartial party who is able to clean the ball at request and place it back as close to the spot as possible.

The refs should be allowed to make a judgement call. If a player asks for the ball to be cleaned just because they are in a tough spot, the ref could look at the cue or OB and state there is no reason to clean it at this time.

If there is obviously a hair, piece of chalk, or something to the like on the ball, it should be allowed to be cleaned by a disinterested party (the ref). etc.

Just my 2c.

Carl B
 
I don't see what the problem is. I use a ball marker everyday and it places the ball back exactly where it was if used correctly.

I can understand feeling that your opponent is trying to shaft you, but creating a fuss isn't going to help the ball go back in its original position.

If he had to throw the ball with some outside and even masse it slightly the shot is hard enough without him getting a kick.
 
Diamond69 said:
And Joey A has a thread about players calling a foul on themselves while these shenanigans are going on?
Click to expand...

Reinforces the fact a rule requiring players to call fouls on themselves puts honest players at a disadvantage.
 
alstl said:
Reinforces the fact a rule requiring players to call fouls on themselves puts honest players at a disadvantage.
Click to expand...

i would think an 'honest player' would call them under any circumstances but i didnt read the other thread as it was such a stupid question in my opinion
 
what is this fall golf..you get to clean a ball after every shot. Now were going to have to add the cue ball is only cleaned between racks to tournament rules.
 
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