Phenolic tips & Aramith Tournament Measle ball damage? & an "It's George" like case

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
Phenolic tips & Aramith Tournament Measle ball damage? & an "It's George" like case

I posted this question in another thread with little feedback, So I thought I might give it a go on its own thread. Is quoting yourself like an Inception thing where both time and space come to a halt?

Anyone have a link to this $30 J&J jumper everyone is talking about? All my retail searches come up with is a $59-$65 J&J dedicated jumper.
Just last night I bought a Players JB12 jump/break with a phenolic tip, but most likely won't receive it until next week. I had a laundry list of supplies I needed to order and impulsively added it to the cart. I have a 10+ year old Players sneaky pete that's a solid hitting cue for such an inexpensive cue. I have low expectations of this new J/B cues performance but WTH it was only $101 at Seyberts. Who knows, I may get a good surprise, but I'm not overly optimistic until I get to test drive it a bit.

Here is the "It's George" like case question, I'm looking for a 3x5 or 4x7 hard case. An Instroke case is about the only thing that slightly interests me at the moment. Yes, I am aware of JBcases, still searching though.

My hard case is only a 2x2 and half of it is occupied by my Huebler, I like the idea of a combination jump/break as it will make use of my case best. I'm looking into a new case in the coming months, just can't find exactly what I'm looking for. Many years ago, I had an "It's George" hard case. I wished I'd known the regret I would later have after parting with it. Anyone know of a case brand/maker that makes a case like the old "it's Geaorge" hard cases? I see they now go for crazy top dollar if you can find an old one for sale.

This is the phenolic tip damage question

One more question relating to the phenolic tip of this new J/B cue. I use Aramith tournament balls for my home table. Will the hard phenolic tip cause damage or scar my Aramith measle cue ball? If that be the case I have a spare Aramith pro (red logo) cue ball that may become a sacrificial cue ball for this cues tip if so.

Thanks for any feedback and your time.

Dopc

I really do appreciate your time and any feedback on any of the posed question above. Have a good one and may your hands be steady, and your aim be true.:eek:uttahere:

Dopc.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
In my experience hard phenolic break "tips" do damage the cue ball.
 

real bartram

Real Cold Steel
Silver Member
I posted this question in another thread with little feedback, So I thought I might give it a go on its own thread. Is quoting yourself like an Inception thing where both time and space come to a halt?



I really do appreciate your time and any feedback on any of the posed question above. Have a good one and may your hands be steady, and your aim be true.:eek:uttahere:

Dopc.

I have prac and played with the same cue ball
For 6 to 8 years breaking with a phenolic tip
No problems with my cue ball
 

Needing weight

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been using phenolic tips on my jump and break cues for about 10 years. I've never noticed them causing any damage to anything besides my opponents wallets.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
In my experience hard phenolic break "tips" do damage the cue ball.
I'll be finding out first hand in a few days, I'll pm you what I discover either way. I'm curious myself

I have prac and played with the same cue ball
For 6 to 8 years breaking with a phenolic tip
No problems with my cue ball
Hey Chris, long time no see:thumbup: As mentioned to Bob, I'll be finding out first hand in a few days, Thanks for your input, I sent you a PM as well.

I've been using phenolic tips on my jump and break cues for about 10 years. I've never noticed them causing any damage to anything besides my opponents wallets.
lol... I've been jumping with a lepro tip on my current ancient/antique jumper. I want to give a phenolic tip a try. My hopes are for that much snappier quick to go airborne jump for those tight close jumps. Using it as a breaker will be just an added bonus. According to the breakspeed app, configured correctly it reports mostly in the 19-24mph neighborhood for me if the app is at all correct. I'll be curious if I can improve on that any, but more importantly, curious about what changes in ball spreads I'll get, if any.

$39 for a J&J Jump Break cue. This seller also has the $30 jump cues sometimes too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380693252517?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649


No damage on my cue balls from phenolic tips. You can see some marks, but it has no effect on how it plays. Cue balls get worn over years no matter what you break with.
Thanks for the link man, greenie given. I have a ball polisher that works well, so if any thing does scuff the ball, hopefully during the daily polish it will remove it. Based on the feedback, sounds like I might be just fine using it at home.


Thank you everyone for your time and feedback.

Dopc.
 
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SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
This is the phenolic tip damage question

One more question relating to the phenolic tip of this new J/B cue. I use Aramith tournament balls for my home table. Will the hard phenolic tip cause damage or scar my Aramith measle cue ball? If that be the case I have a spare Aramith pro (red logo) cue ball that may become a sacrificial cue ball for this cues tip if so.

I took some photos of my red circle ball and my measles ball with my microscope. Keep in mind: both of these cue balls are over 5 years old, and I have been using a phenolic ferrule/tip combo on my break cue for at least that long (although I recently switched to a G10 ferrule with a Samsara tip and love the new combo). In my opinion, the phenolic tips absolutely cause visual "damage," but it appears to be underneath the surface of the ball. As far as I can tell, any damage caused by breaking with a phenolic tip does not affect playability, although I can't be sure of that (of course).

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Your cue ball may get some of these little crescent marks, but you can't feel them, even running a fingernail or a knife blade across them.

(Edited to add: FYI, the crescent marks have a diameter of about 5 mm)

To me, the tiny surface scratches on both cue balls seem to be much more prevalent than any surface distortions from the crescents caused by the phenolic tips.

Hope this helps,

-Blake

P.S. I break around the same speed range, 18-25 mph.


Red Circle (came with my Aramith Pro set in 2005):

pic0005.jpg

pic0006.jpg

pic0007.jpg



Measles Ball (purchased around 2007):

pic0001.jpg

pic0003.jpg
 
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Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
I took some photos of my red circle ball and my measles ball with my microscope. Keep in mind: both of these cue balls are over 5 years old, and I have been using a phenolic ferrule/tip combo on my break cue for at least that long (although I recently switched to a G10 ferrule with a Samsara tip and love the new combo). In my opinion, the phenolic tips absolutely cause visual "damage," but it appears to be underneath the surface of the ball. As far as I can tell, any damage caused by breaking with a phenolic tip does not affect playability, although I can't be sure of that (of course).

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Your cue ball may get some of these little crescent marks, but you can't feel them, even running a fingernail or a knife blade across them.

(Edited to add: FYI, the crescent marks have a diameter of about 5 mm)

To me, the tiny surface scratches on both cue balls seem to be much more prevalent than any surface distortions from the crescents caused by the phenolic tips.

Hope this helps,

-Blake

P.S. I break around the same speed range, 18-25 mph.

Whats up Blake...
Awesome magnified pictures man. Quick question for you, Did you have and use any sort of mechanical ball polisher? If so, how often were these balls polished, I'm just curiously wondering what mine would look like now magnified after the roughly 100+ cycles in the polisher. I just might have to get creative before this cue shows up for some before and afters.

Is it just me or does the first picture of the measle ball look like a ferrule imprint?:scratchhead:
I would have thought a phenolic tip would have left more of a small roundish scuff mark more so than how that resembles the shape of a ferrule. More of a hillbilly analysis than a forensic one.:lmao:
It just dawned on me, before I put my flooring down, it was bare concrete for a short while. On a few occasions the cue ball popped off the table and bounced a few good times on the concrete leaving some nasty scuff spots when examined closely. After several daily rotations in the polisher, those scuff marks did appear to slowly vanish. I just happen to recall all of this as I'm typing, thus answering my original post for the most part..:banghead::withstupid: No visible damage on the ball now that the vinyl plank flooring is down when this occurs.
I also just happen to recall, and I believe it was from Dr.Daves writing, though I may be mistaken. That if you shrunk the earth down to the size of a cue ball, on a molecular scale the earth would have a smoother surface than a new cue ball does.
Regardless, based on the feedback from you and others here, the consensus is to use it and abuse it until it's time to replace it. I mean a cue ball, like cushions, cloth & cues, only last so long before its time for replacement. And what does a new measle ball go for, roughly $30 bucks or so. Wouldn't hurt to have more than one right? Thanks for your reply and pictures good sir.

On second thought, maybe I should have had more concern for and reserved this threads topic & title to "Who will give me 20:1 odds on the tip staying on this inexpensive cue in the first 25 break & jumps". :rotflmao1:

Dopc.
 
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Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
Check out the following article: “Is a Pool Ball Smoother Than the Earth?” (BD, June, 2013). It contains some super-high-magnification images of ball manufacturing defects and scuff marks.

Thanks for posting the cool microscope photos.

Regards,
Dave

Is there an echo in here or has the Inception effect surfaced once again from me quoting my own post yet again? .... lol

I also just happen to recall, and I believe it was from Dr.Daves writing, though I may be mistaken. That if you shrunk the earth down to the size of a cue ball, on a molecular scale the earth would have a smoother surface than a new cue ball does.
Dopc.

Thanks for the link Dr.Dave. Indeed Very, very cool pictures Blake.


Dopc.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
Here is some info on ball damage, though the pictures may no longer be available:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1276513&postcount=17

Wow. I followed the link and it indeed made for an interesting read for sure. Although the lack of manufacturer support doesn't surprise me a bit. Just another one of those canned responses for "too bad, sucker......buy another". Sadly, this has become common place and almost acceptable to a majority of todays consumers for a lot of various products..
I'm going to break and jump with the phenolic tip anyways. Worst case scenario is I go through a few pro-cup cue balls, but if it gets to a point where I'm replacing a cue-ball every couple of months, I may re-evaluate my choice. Time will tell, I'm up for the challenge.

Thanks for the link Black-Balled

Dopc.
 

D_Lewis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For some reason I think the half moon marks are below the clear coat. Almost like it will flex a bit and then it leaves a mark. You can't feel them.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
The measles cue ball is notorious for having those half moon marks on it after a while. They can deny it all they want but I've never seen a used pro cup ball without them.

I've never noticed it in the poolhalls around here that use them, then again I never really looked that close for signs of damage. I do see people jumping them with synthetic tips very frequently.
My Lepro tip (even one of the hardest of the box of 50) just isn't cutting it for those real close jumps. I do replace my own tips with hand tooling, have for as long as I've played. But, I don't feel like messing with a phenolic tip and I don't have a lathe for trimming. As mentioned in the first post, this was a spontaneous "add to cart" purchase, whether this cue will fit my need and not fall apart, who knows.. I will certainly find out in a few days and over the next few weeks....

Dopc.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
For some reason I think the half moon marks are below the clear coat. Almost like it will flex a bit and then it leaves a mark. You can't feel them.

I completely believe you, I'm just trying to grasp how the damage can't be felt. The resin does have a small amount of flex and give, so I can see how it takes the damage. From what I understand (which isn't much by the way), isn't the resin consistent from the outer shell to it's inner core, or is there a combination of material at various depths and possibly various densities from the surface to the core. I guess only Aramith has that answer most likely.
Interesting topic for sure. Thanks for your input.

Dopc.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...the lack of manufacturer support doesn't surprise me a bit. Just another one of those canned responses for "too bad, sucker......buy another". ....

Thanks for the link Black-Balled

Dopc.

I agree, but not sure that is a bad thing, from Aramith's position...Aramith isn't responsible for the actions of cuemakers.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
I agree, but not sure that is a bad thing, from Aramith's position...Aramith isn't responsible for the actions of cuemakers.

Valid point. So the next dumb question I would throw out there is, who was the driving force in establishing the synthetic tip being made legal again after being illegal for use for a few years by league/tournament governing bodies? Not necessarily directed at you, just a question in general. Wouldn't be a ball manufacturer by any chance would it?

Dopc.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I also just happen to recall, and I believe it was from Dr.Daves writing, though I may be mistaken. That if you shrunk the earth down to the size of a cue ball, on a molecular scale the earth would have a smoother surface than a new cue ball does.
Much of the Earth's surface is smoother than a CB in a relative sense, but a shrunken-down Earth would make a terrible pool ball. Here are the last two paragraphs from my article that summarize the accurate surface measurements:

So, based on the data, just how smooth is a CB? And how does this smoothness compare to the surface of the Earth? The highest point on earth is Mount Everest, which is about 29,000 feet above sea level; and the lowest point (in the earth’s crust) is Mariana’s Trench, which is about 36,000 feet below sea level. The larger number (36,000 feet) corresponds to about 17000 parts per million as compared to the average radius of the Earth (6371 kilometers). The largest peak or trench for all of the balls I tested was about 3 microns (for the Elephant Practice Ball). This corresponds to about 100 parts per million as compared to the radius of a pool ball (1 1/8 inch). Therefore, it would appear that a pool ball (even the worst one tested) is much smoother than the Earth would be if it were shrunk down to the size of a pool ball. However, the Earth is actually much smoother than the numbers imply over most of its surface. A 1x1 millimeter area on a pool ball (the physical size of the images) corresponds to about a 140x140 mile area on the Earth. Such a small area certainly doesn’t include things like Mount Everest and Mariana’s Trench in the same locale. And in many places, especially places like Louisiana, where I grew up, the Earth’s surface is very flat and smooth over this area size. Therefore, much of the Earth’s surface would be much smoother than a pool ball if it were shrunk down to the same size.

Regardless, the Earth would make a terrible pool ball. Not only would it have a few extreme peaks and trenches still larger than typical pool-ball surface features, the shrunken-Earth ball would also be terribly non round compared to high-quality pool balls. The diameter at the equator (which is larger due to the rotation of the Earth) is 43 km greater than the diameter at the poles. That would correspond to a pool ball diameter variance of about 7 thousandths of an inch. Typical new and high-quality pool balls are much rounder than that, usually within 1 thousandth of an inch.
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
And just like that I was as wrong as can be and relaying mis-understood information. At least I had the source correct.:thumbup: Thanks Dr.Dave for the correction and clarification.

I'd still much rather use an earth ball over a 2 3/8" over sized mud ball from an old dynamo bar box. just saying...

Dopc.
 
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