i dont understand the hype about ld shafts

[RBC]

Thats all well and good and I agree that adjusting to an LD shaft probably wouldn't be that difficult. But .... that's not my issue with them.

My issue is what the hell makes these thing worth 2 or 3 hundred dollars (other than people buy them) when I can buy perfectly good rock maple shafts for 30 or 40 bucks, taper them myself with a homemade lathe, and put a nice 4 dollar Tiger Emerald tip on them?

That's the real issue in my mind. Unless you have money to burn, what makes that wood any better? Mind you I've been playing and using these shafts for MANY years with no issue. And ... should one occur, what's the big deal? 30 bucks stings much less then shitcanning a 300 dollar shaft.

That's the hype ... the price ... not the amount of deflection because missing by less is still missing.

3andstop


I completely understand. As I said our cues and cue shafts are not for everyone. Obviously, that can and apparently does include you, and I'm ok with that.

As for the cost, I can assure you that no one in the billiard industry is making tons of money. It's actually a very tough industry to make a living in. I constantly see products in other markets that would take much less effort and cost to make, that sell for much more than cue products do. And, the market that buys them is 100 times bigger than the pool market is. But I like what I do, and as long as I can make it, I'll stick with it.

Shoot Well!

Royce

 

[RBC]

I've tried Lo Deflection shafts...and I just can't get used to them either...

I also have a problem with the idea of buying a very nice custom cue, and using a generic production shaft on a high dollar custom cue...

I also heard that the lo deflection shafts originated as a way to recycle, the good white wood, of a blemished shaft...so that they could cut out the mineral marks and blemishes...and that way, they could make use of the 75% of waste that they normally would have had to dispose of...so, it's basically a recycled shaft that's glued together in a strategic manor, for mass marketing...HYPE...

...and now, I'm hearing that most of the lo deflection shafts are made in China...so, it is even less appealing for me to even consider putting one on my custom cues...
...and being made in China, with china labor rates, and compared to the resale prices that they're asking for here in the USA...you know, they're making a killing...(I've heard this about Predator...I'm not sure of the OB shafts...I'm sure Royce will comment...)

I'll be happy to edit anything if I have stated anything that isn't true...

jwe

I can tell you that the "way to recycle, the good white wood, of a blemished shaft" things just isn't true. It's simply not feasible to try to harvest part of a partially turned down cue shaft just to save the wood. Blemishes show up in the last stages, and to use the wood in another product it would have to be fully intact, not already cut down to discover the blemish.

As for being "Made in China", it's true that some LD shafts are made in China, but not all. I can assure you that our OB cue shafts are all made in Plano Texas. I also know that the Jacoby shafts are made in their factory up north, and I'm sure there are others as well. Anyway, you can most certainly buy American and get an excellent product. And, it just might actually be cheaper than the ones made in China.

 

[dr_dave]

i dont understand the hype about ld shafts

LD shafts do offer an advantage to some people. It can be easier to adjust for less squirt when using sidespin. However, one still needs to compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw appropriately and differently for each shot based on shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, and conditionis. For more info, see:

- advantages of LD shafts
- disadvantages of LD shafts
- compensating aim for squirt, swerve, and throw

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[KRJ]

I've tried Lo Deflection shafts...and I just can't get used to them either...

I also have a problem with the idea of buying a very nice custom cue, and using a generic production shaft on a high dollar custom cue...

.

I don't know about you, but I have a few nice custom cues, and then I attach very custom LD shafts to them to shoot better. How is one shaft "generic" and one is custom... they are both wood, no inlays, no points, etc..... One is spliced and one is not. ya know, just like some custom cues

 

[evanlockhart]

TLDR;

"I don't like LD shafts so I went back to my Viking"

 

[RRfireblade]

I also heard that the lo deflection shafts originated as a way to recycle, the good white wood, of a blemished shaft...so that they could cut out the mineral marks and blemishes...and that way, they could make use of the 75% of waste that they normally would have had to dispose of...so, it's basically a recycled shaft that's glued together in a strategic manor, for mass marketing...HYPE...

You "heard" from someone that clearly has not one single idea how shafts are made, laminated or otherwise.

:thumbup:

 

[jwe711]

You "heard" from someone that clearly has not one single idea how shafts are made, laminated or otherwise.

:thumbup:

Thank You for correcting my thoughts...I am truly a student of the game, and of how the cues and shafts are produced, and/or manufactured...!!!

 

[Matt]

LD shafts do offer an advantage to some people. It can be easier to adjust for less squirt when using sidespin. However, one still needs to compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw appropriately and differently for each shot based on shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, and conditionis. For more info, see:

- advantages of LD shafts
- disadvantages of LD shafts
- compensating aim for squirt, swerve, and throw

Enjoy,
Dave

I highly recommend the resources on Dave's website to anyone that really wants to understand how "low-deflection" (technically, low-squirt) shafts will affect the path of the cue ball under various conditions.

Personally, I have almost always played with a LD shaft, and have played with the same WD700 shaft for at least the past few years. The WD700 is not a laminated shaft, but does have the endmass reduced to produce less CB squirt.

If you have read through the pros and cons of LD shafts, it should be pretty clear that the LD shaft does allow for more error and most of the arguments against them are based on feel or familiarity with a higher squirt shaft. I would suggest to any new player that wants any equipment advantage they can get that they should buy an LD shaft as long as they can justify the cost.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Ken

I've had many people think that LD shafts won't masse, which simply is incorrect.

When you line up a masse shot with a regular cue shaft, you don't aim where you want the cue ball to go because you have to allow for so much cue ball squirt. When you line up a masse with an LD shaft, you just aim to completely miss the interfering ball.

A masse is a spin shot. Any shaft that will spin the ball can shoot a masse. If anything, because LD typically spins the cue ball a little more than a regular shaft, they may actually do it better.

As I mentioned, I am sure it is possible, I just couldn't do it. Several players relayed this to me as well.

When I played with a Predator, I would get out my break cue to do masse shots....

Ken

 

[RBC]

As I mentioned, I am sure it is possible, I just couldn't do it. Several players relayed this to me as well.

When I played with a Predator, I would get out my break cue to do masse shots....

Ken

So Ken

When you tried to masse with your Predator, what happened?

Did you not get spin on the cue ball?

Did you run straight into the ball you were trying to get around?


For most that I've talked to, it's the latter. It seems that for some, it's hard to actually aim far enough to the side of the interfering ball to get around it. The only difference between an LD shaft and a regular shaft is the aim direction. A regular shaft will squirt the cue ball quite a bit, which is the same thing as aiming to miss the interfering ball with an LD shaft.

I don't think I've ever failed to teach someone, who could masse with a regular shaft, how to do it with an LD shaft. If you're ever at a show where we are displaying, come find me, and I'll help you out.

Thanks

 

[ENGLISH!]

I highly recommend the resources on Dave's website to anyone that really wants to understand how "low-deflection" (technically, low-squirt) shafts will affect the path of the cue ball under various conditions.

Personally, I have almost always played with a LD shaft, and have played with the same WD700 shaft for at least the past few years. The WD700 is not a laminated shaft, but does have the endmass reduced to produce less CB squirt.

If you have read through the pros and cons of LD shafts, it should be pretty clear that the LD shaft does allow for more error and most of the arguments against them are based on feel or familiarity with a higher squirt shaft. I would suggest to any new player that wants any equipment advantage they can get that they should buy an LD shaft as long as they can justify the cost.

I can certainly agree with Matt's statements in Blue.

I have an OB Classic & a McDermott i2. As most know the OBs are laminated shafts but are very solid. The i series shaft by McDermott are solid maple with a carbon fiber tube down the center.

If not for the different tips on them I can not really tell any real difference in feel between them. If fact after playing a bit I will forget which one I even have on the cue unless I come out of focus & notice a ply line on the OB.

So, they both feel very much like a regular shaft but with less weight & less squirt & the i2 even looks like a regular maple shaft.

It did not take me long to adapt to the LD after 46 years of playing with regular maple.

I would strongly suggest that any newcomer use an LD shaft but also play with a house cue to understand the difference & what is going on to a lesser degree with the LDs.

 

[Ken_4fun]

So Ken

When you tried to masse with your Predator, what happened?

Did you not get spin on the cue ball?

Did you run straight into the ball you were trying to get around?


For most that I've talked to, it's the latter. It seems that for some, it's hard to actually aim far enough to the side of the interfering ball to get around it. The only difference between an LD shaft and a regular shaft is the aim direction. A regular shaft will squirt the cue ball quite a bit, which is the same thing as aiming to miss the interfering ball with an LD shaft.

I don't think I've ever failed to teach someone, who could masse with a regular shaft, how to do it with an LD shaft. If you're ever at a show where we are displaying, come find me, and I'll help you out.

Thanks

Strangely, I never had any issue applying English on the ball, (ie draw, inside, outside, follow) and if I remember correctly, it was really easy to draw the ball, similar to the old Meucci shafts.

The shot I could never do was what I called a partial masse where I needed to move cueball about 1/3 of the object ball.

I appreciate the offer for lessons, but I currently play with Gus hoppe cue with a Dennis Searing shaft (the original shafts to the Gus are full size). I don't think I will be changing up. I am really impressed with the Searing shaft.

Ken

 

[Black-Balled]

I come to AZBilliards just for gems like this^^^^

Freddie <~~~ would love to say it, but couldn't fade the oncoming slap

I noticed that too...haw-haw-haw.

On of the big advantages fo LD shafts, IMO is the ability to change butts and still have basically the same playing cue.

I've tried a few and did not like the hollow end fell they have.:shrug:

 

[lorider]

People saying it's all hype... there's an easy 5 minute test you can do,
to confirm that the shaft does what it's supposed to do, which is just reduce deflection.

If any ad tells you it will help you play like a pro, make balls better, etc... obviously that's marketing BS.
You can't hold that against them though, the ad for my car implied I'd get laid more often if I bought it.
That's just advertising.

But the basic idea - that it changes where you must aim with spin - is fact, not fiction.
It can be confirmed in 5 minutes. Not hype or BS. If it didn't actually change anything,
then the adjustment would be automatic and we'd never see posts like lorider's.

lorider, you're coming up on 60 you say?

I think past a certain point shotmaking and muscle memory are grooved in.
Like if you play with a certain stroke for over 10 years, you're probably doomed if you try to change it.
You probably spent... what, 40 years?? aiming with a higher deflection cue.
If changing after 10 years is difficult, changing after 40 is pretty much impossible.
You can't undo 40 years of aiming "this way" with one year of aiming "that way". Not a chance.

I wanna add something else and it's gonna sound really mean and arrogant. But I remember
in that APA stats thread, you're a 5 after like 500 league matches. That tells me there are just some things
in pool you flat out don't get. Deflection might be one of them. Sorry man, just being honest.
I'd say most APA 5's aren't going to really get much out of an LD shaft.
You keep looking for equipment fixes... you said you tried like a zillion different tips.
Forget the tip and forget the shaft, just work on your game. Play with a viking, that's fine...
get all the equipment excuses out of your system now.
And then figure out what's really prevented you from winning half your matches.

hey creedo... i dont think your reply is mean at all.

you just gave your opinion based on what you recall from reading a couple of posts i made earlier and thats fine. its a lot better than someone making an opinion based on just one post in this thread. i respect you for that.

now let me share a few things without as fatboy says " putting your biz out on the street " well not too much anyway.

i think you would have to agree that the mental aspect plays an important role in how well you play. you know... staying focused. not letting your opponent shark you, ignoring ll the commotion around you , keeping your mind on what you are doing at the table etc, etc.

do you know how hard it is to stay focused when while you are on your way to league and you get a call from your son saying... he loves and misses you and says he wishes we could be a family again " meaning me, him and his mother .

he is 14 now and has been living 2 states away for the last 6 years. we talk every week and i see him when i get the chance but those visits are never often enough. not a day goes by i dont think about him. kinda hard to focus on a pool game when your mind is 900 miles away wondering how he did at football practice.

your health plays a big part in how well you play. i had an injury 3 years a go to my right arm and hand where i was out of work for a year. yea im right handed also. i had a lot of nerve and tendon damage. ther are days it feels ok and there are days when it aches like the worse toothache you can imagine. when it feels good i play good. when it feels bad i play bad.

yea i got issues but they are not equipment issues " except for ld shafts lol . i do like to experiment with different cues and tips like you say but i dont think that impairs my game ... again except for ld shafts. case in point. i went to vegas for 9 ball nationals this year. i decided to not take any of my regular cues because i did not want them stolen or damaged.

i took a cheap 30.00 sneaky pete i picked up 2 months ago. i played well enough with that cue to win my 1st match 38-4 against a 5.

won my 2nd match 38-10 against a 5.

my 3rd match i am down 18-0 against a 7 before i ever get to the table. from there on out i scored 36 to his 37 losing 55-36 against a very strong 7.

so its supposed to be nothing but the best players or a shit load of sandbaggers at the nationals however you look at it and i fared pretty well with a cheap import cue i have only had for 2 months. nah i dont think i have equipment issues , except for ld shafts and thus why i started this thread.

last summer i was a 6 with a 67% win record. i was taking pain medication but i decided i would rather a an average 5 than a good 6 with a pain pill addiction so i stopped taking them.

i hope you dont think i am using excuses for my poor level of play that i have sometimes. i know we all have problems in life that prevent us all from being the best we can be at whatever endeavor we embark upon.

i am actually quite thankfull for where i am at in life because no matter how bad i think i got it i know there are people all around that are worse off than i am.

sorry to those of you that dont like long posts and hope it was not too boring.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Lorider,

On the contrary, your post was a good post. I hope it makes others 'real eyes' how lucky & Blessed that we are.

I've said a pray for you & your son's situation & your hand & arm pain.

I wll try to remember you in them later as well.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Donny Lutz]

Predators, etc.

A while back I did a contrast of the AZB money list vs the listed predator"sponsored" players ..and frankly it looked REALLY bad for predator.... you can try and find it if you like... if it hasn't been deleted... on "accident"

It's difficult to learn much by checking the list of "sponsored" players.

Many sign on with a cue maker and then have that cue maker create a custom cue that may have the specs of another brand. Many use Predator, OB, Tiger, or other shafts on the butt from another maker. Pro players, like everyone else, don't stick with one cue for life, but experiment with different cues.

One world champion apparently used an original 314 without a logo on the butt made by their sponsor and no one knew it.

 

[ctyhntr]

Last night I tried out Predator P3 at the poolhall. After 5-15 minutes I was able to adjust and make my shots. For me it was very easy to put english, such as force-follow. That's what I expect from a LD shaft. So, my next comparison was draw, using a draw shot drill as a benchmark. I didn't find that I drew it farther than if I was using my regular cue.

 

[dr_dave]

Last night I tried out Predator P3 at the poolhall. After 5-15 minutes I was able to adjust and make my shots. For me it was very easy to put english, such as force-follow. That's what I expect from a LD shaft. So, my next comparison was draw, using a draw shot drill as a benchmark. I didn't find that I drew it farther than if I was using my regular cue.

An LD shaft can produce slightly more spin than a non-LD shaft, but the effect is very small. For more info, see the getting more spin with an LD shaft resource page. Now, because LD shafts typically have a smaller diameter, people might be getting more spin on the ball because their judgement of the tip contact point changes with the tip size and radius. For more info, see the "tips of english" and cue tip size and shape resource pages.

Regards,
Dave

 

[lorider]

Lorider,

On the contrary, your post was a good post. I hope it makes others 'real eyes' how lucky & Blessed that we are.

I've said a pray for you & your son's situation & your hand & arm pain.

I wll try to remember you in them later as well.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

thank you english

 

[LuckyStroke]

LD deflection shaft sucks !!!
That's way nobody decent can't play with them!!!!
:wink::wink::wink:

Finally someone not good to disagree no?