wanna know how to out a sandbagger ?

[Banks]

I just dont see the point in punishing the good players.

I don't like it, but the APA has made it this way.

The flip side could be..

If I'm a 7 playing a 2 in an even race, would I even get any better at all knowing that I don't even stand a chance of losing? Handicaps force honest players to put forth effort. The way I've always seen it is; if I'm a 6 in 9b, I want to be a good 6. After that, I become a 7, then my goal is to be a good 7, etc. Now my goal is to crush my opponent.

 

[CreeDo]

The APA handicap limit is a JOKE. Change the spots, or the system so people could play with out sand bagging and the sand baggers would stop.

I get what you're saying. If the handicapping is fair, then in theory a team of 1's could play a team of 9's,
it would be a perfect 50/50 coin flip who would win, right? So why not allow a team of 9's to compete?
With a fair handicap, they shouldn't be any more dominant than some other team.

On paper it doesn't sound bad, but here's why it can't work in reality.

• Sometimes the skill gap is so huge, there is no handicap big enough.
A SL9 can play a SL1 100 racks of 8 ball, and will probably win 100/100.
OK, a less extreme example, a SL6 vs. SL3... maybe the SL3 wins 1 out of 10 racks.

There isn't enough time to play ten racks of 8 ball.
Races to 11 might make sense for the US Open, but league night people have jobs in the morning.
You just can't make races long enough to be 100% fair, even if you calculate the spot perfectly.

• You can't calculate the spot perfectly. I know of no bulletproof formula. The APA system is decent
but generally favors the better player. The 7,8,9 ranked players in our league have 60-80% win rates.
The 1's and 2's tend to go under 50%.

• If you make a perfect handicapping system then your win rate will hover around 50%. Be honest,
would you be happy with that? What's your win rate in whatever league you play? I bet it's higher.
Unless you're totally playing just to be social, I bet 50% would kind of piss you off, right?
Strong players have a hard time accepting a loss. Our team full of 9's would have half of them
quit the first week, once they realized every match was basically a coin toss.

Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.

 

[RRfireblade]

Handicaps are never fair. The greater the spread, the greater the disparity between fairness.

The lower level you are the more likely you are to shoot over your handicap and the greater the possible range one might exceed it by. As one approaches the Max possible skill level l, the opposite scenerio exists.

Then in games like pool, where it is possible to shoot a perfect game (runout), there is no possible handicap method to compensate any other level.

 

[Tobby]

Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

LOL you havent played in memphis ..

We joke that playing handicap around there is like this.

Player 1 " Hi Iam a 4 cause that is the number of racks i can run in a row"

LOL

I had a 2 run 2 racks on me from the break out and im playing as a 9 trying to fade it .

Ohwell its all in fun.

 

[jhanso18]

I get what you're saying. If the handicapping is fair, then in theory a team of 1's could play a team of 9's,
it would be a perfect 50/50 coin flip who would win, right? So why not allow a team of 9's to compete?
With a fair handicap, they shouldn't be any more dominant than some other team.

On paper it doesn't sound bad, but here's why it can't work in reality.

• Sometimes the skill gap is so huge, there is no handicap big enough.
A SL9 can play a SL1 100 racks of 8 ball, and will probably win 100/100.
OK, a less extreme example, a SL6 vs. SL3... maybe the SL3 wins 1 out of 10 racks.

There isn't enough time to play ten racks of 8 ball.
Races to 11 might make sense for the US Open, but league night people have jobs in the morning.
You just can't make races long enough to be 100% fair, even if you calculate the spot perfectly.

• You can't calculate the spot perfectly. I know of no bulletproof formula. The APA system is decent
but generally favors the better player. The 7,8,9 ranked players in our league have 60-80% win rates.
The 1's and 2's tend to go under 50%.

• If you make a perfect handicapping system then your win rate will hover around 50%. Be honest,
would you be happy with that? What's your win rate in whatever league you play? I bet it's higher.
Unless you're totally playing just to be social, I bet 50% would kind of piss you off, right?
Strong players have a hard time accepting a loss. Our team full of 9's would have half of them
quit the first week, once they realized every match was basically a coin toss.

Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.

I've played tourney's where the spots are both games on wire and ball spots, depending on speed. that's the best way to do it. I agree that your damned if you do or don't, but I wont play APA for that reason exactly. You could also make separate divisions, (common sense to me.) In our league we have B2, B1, A3 (division 1&2 because of how large it is.) A2, A1, AA, and masters division. Plus we also have league for all women, B1, A2, A1, and womens masters. No one sand bags, because it doesn't help to sand bag. You just do your best and the chips fall where they will.

Seems a better system to me. I still like APA for beginners. I'd wager the APA brings in more new pool players per year than ANYTHING else in the states.

Eitherway, the best solution is to just play. Stop complaining and just have fun. If you're not having fun, why play in the first place?

 

[lorider]

LOL you havent played in memphis ..

We joke that playing handicap around there is like this.

Player 1 " Hi Iam a 4 cause that is the number of racks i can run in a row"

LOL

I had a 2 run 2 racks on me from the break out and im playing as a 9 trying to fade it .

Ohwell its all in fun.

i have never seen a 4 run 4 racks here or for that matter a 2 run 2 rack . a 9 huh ?

i only know of 1 9 in apa.

several 9's in bcapl points money league.

where do you play ?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.

I have to wonder if the 23 rule has any significant impact on growing the league at this point. Maybe in the early years but it's pretty likely the league and the market have matured. I'd guess that for the most part the 23 rule only results in players switching from one APA team to another with no net gain in membership. One team has to get rid of a "9" and that guy ends up on another APA team that needs a strong player. And that player's old team then picks up a weaker player from another APA team. But there is probably very little new blood coming in anymore from this rule. In fact, couldn't it have the opposite effect at this point? Say the "9" goes on another APA team and they dump their weakest player. No other team in that area needs to pick up a crappy player so the net result to the APA is the loss of that player.

I just don't think it's like it was in the early days where there were a lot of regulars in the pool hall every day that didn't join the league initially and these people provided a ready pool of new players.

 

[Tobby]

i have never seen a 4 run 4 racks here or for that matter a 2 run 2 rack . a 9 huh ?

i only know of 1 9 in apa.

several 9's in bcapl points money league.

where do you play ?

Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

 

[lorider]

Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

gotcha !!

i know what events you are talking about.

i dont know how the hell he comes up with those handicaps he does.

got a funny story to tell you bout my one and only time playing in his tourneys.

it was about 2 years ago i guess. i go up to him and say i want to enter. he has known me for a while and says you are going to be a 3. i say huh ? im thinking im better than a 3.

i play a few matches and win 2 before i get put in the losers bracket. i face this person who i have known for quite a while. we we go to the table to lag she asks me my handicap, i say a 3.

she replies , a 3 ? wtf ? her exact words. i say yea a 3, i say whats your handicap, she says a 4. i say a 4 ? wtf ? my exact words to her. well we both shrug and commence to play where she wins 4-2.

the kicker here is i believe i was an apa 4 at the time but may have been a 5. she was an apa 7 lol. the one and only time i played in those tourneys.

whats really funny is he held a team tourney a lil while back . i go down and watch and mingle with friends. i see one buddy who is an apa 5 rated a 4 in this event. i see another buddy who is an apa 7 rated a 3 in this event.

when i saw that it told me i made the right decision to never enter one of his events again.

 

[lorider]

Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

let me clarify something, if im wrong correct me. the events i think you are talking about are held at hi pockets with the last one being a team event held at sharpshooters.

tracy has promoted some of these but has no dealing with the handicapping that goes on. tracy does not run these himself, he just provides the location. the same thing with robby at sharpshooters,

 

[Tobby]

well iw asnt goiing to say the name of the place because they really only supply the tables but yes high pockets is the place of the tournys im talking about. I dont mind being a 9 i really dont i play that good , but what i mind is some of the lower handicaps lol.. Oh and i have won several of the every 2 week tournys on sat night so this isnt coming from bad feelings of money .

 

[lorider]

well iw asnt goiing to say the name of the place because they really only supply the tables but yes high pockets is the place of the tournys im talking about. I dont mind being a 9 i really dont i play that good , but what i mind is some of the lower handicaps lol.. Oh and i have won several of the every 2 week tournys on sat night so this isnt coming from bad feelings of money .

if you are the guy from jackson i am thinking about i can see you ranked pretty high. you play pretty darn good.

as for me i cant fade those master league players that are only ranked 1 notch above me in those tourneys lol.

i am glad you realize the room owner has nothing to do with establishing handicaps . he is about the best room owner any player could ask for.

 

[Tobby]

Ohyeah tracey is about the BEST room owner i have ever known and dealt with and the pool room itself is GREAT. And yes im from jackson lol. Good job by the way getting the sandbagger trapped .

 

[CreeDo]

I have to wonder if the 23 rule has any significant impact on growing the league at this point. Maybe in the early years but it's pretty likely the league and the market have matured. I'd guess that for the most part the 23 rule only results in players switching from one APA team to another with no net gain in membership. One team has to get rid of a "9" and that guy ends up on another APA team that needs a strong player. And that player's old team then picks up a weaker player from another APA team. But there is probably very little new blood coming in anymore from this rule. In fact, couldn't it have the opposite effect at this point? Say the "9" goes on another APA team and they dump their weakest player. No other team in that area needs to pick up a crappy player so the net result to the APA is the loss of that player.

I've been in this exact situation... and I've seen the rosters grow as a direct result of the cap.
I'm a 9 and we had three 6's and I was sitting out constantly.
I was sitting out as a 7 actually. I couldn't play without a 1 or 2 also playing.

We had a 2 but not reliable. So what did we do? We felt we had too many 6's and one of them
volunteered to spin off. He formed his own team. At least one of his teammates was a new player
that wasn't in the APA before. +1 to the APA.

Meanwhile, we struggled with our lineup still, the 2 became too essential. Low numbered players
are actually really valued in our league and people actively seek out those 2's and 3's. (a good thing imo).

If our 2 called out, I was stuck on the sidelines, and sometimes we couldn't fully use up our 23 skill points.
So we recruited one of the 6's girlfriends, and a female friend of our 3. Neither had played APA before.
+2 to the APA.

I believe the cap continues to bring in new players. I like it. Keeps the pool room active and the league fun.

 

[lorider]

I'll bet he is.

just looked at the stats.

guess what ?

you lost the bet. he was raised. :wink:

 

[Racing-Robbie]

For anyone that's played in Vegas you have to have at least one player that is under ranked. With that being said in June of this year I was a "3" went up to a "5" at our state tourney and moved up to a "6" in Vegas this year. 3 ranks in 2 months. Broke n ran 2 and racked and ran one playing a decent 7 still coming up short.

I mainly kept my rank down for tournaments and doubles events. People can say I bagged but I have a sl 3,4, and 5 100% certificates! Lol. I plan on trying to win every match as a 6 too. Only been playing 2 years.

Bagging is frowned upon but the 23 rule makes people do it. Who likes splitting teams up that have been together for ever?

 

[jeffj2h]

I guess I'm naive. I thought sandbagging meant trying to win every match but padding your innings with a few missed shots to keep your SL down. Now I see there are "sleeper agents" out there playing crapy on purpose all season so they can make an impact during the playoffs?

Both are too masochistic for me.


With that said its easy to see what you expect to see. Last week I played my first APA 9B match, as a 6 (carryover from APA 8B). I played another 6 so it was a race to 46. I started on a roll, put in a break and run, and got up 32-9. Then I miscued on a combo, and over the next several games missed numerous plausible but not easy shots. My opponent got to 23. Then I ran my last 4 balls to win. My opponent said nothing but could have been thinking I'm a closet 7 or 8 and started sandbagging once I got out ahead. Actually I was worried I'd blow it and was trying hard to close out the match.

 

[lorider]

i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

 

[Icon of Sin]

i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

So the guy who was rated a 4 and crushed your 8 is now a 5 and still grossly underrated and your player also got raised in the process to a 9 after getting crushed.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, "you sure showed him."

 

[Ken_4fun]

i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

Ive seen that before....never understood it.

Ken