MD 14.1 - Safety Question (Finals)

[BeiberLvr]

Just started watching the finals between Archer and Hohmann.

Thorsten had this leave in the early stages, and goes for a masse.

Instead of doing that here, would it be reasonable to just scratch in the corner pocket?

My thinking behind it is now Archer can't shoot the 8 or 1 (unless he wants to kick at the 1), and it doesn't look like an easy safe off the 12 on the rail (if he can even see it).

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Instead of doing that here, would it be reasonable to just scratch in the corner pocket?

My thinking behind it is now Archer can't shoot the 8 or 1 (unless he wants to kick at the 1), and it doesn't look like an easy safe off the 12 on the rail (if he can even see it).

I think a scratch is a loser. Archer will kick in the 1 and may get position on the 8 to get down under the rack for a break.

What was the foul situation when Hohmann shot the masse?

 

[BeiberLvr]

I think a scratch is a loser. Archer will kick in the 1 and may get position on the 8 to get down under the rack for a break.

What was the foul situation when Hohmann shot the masse?

I believe neither had a foul at that point.

 

[sjm]

I believe neither had a foul at that point.

If that is so, scratching into the corner is a mistake. If opponent judges that the player with ball-in-hand has a problem, they can do the same, knocking the cue ball into a pocket. More likely, a smart opponent would reply with a fairly soft back-scratch under the pack and, with both of you on a foul, they will be way ahead in the safety battle.

The foul into a pocket is a losing move.

 

[NYC cue dude]

He said he didn't think he could miss it

I was surprised he didn't come off the opposite long rail, actually.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Just started watching the finals between Archer and Hohmann.

Thorsten had this leave in the early stages, and goes for a masse.

Instead of doing that here, would it be reasonable to just scratch in the corner pocket?

My thinking behind it is now Archer can't shoot the 8 or 1 (unless he wants to kick at the 1), and it doesn't look like an easy safe off the 12 on the rail (if he can even see it).

It's hard to tell the angle, but I like to shoot square into the 3 and glue the CB to the side of the rack. The 3 will carom to the rail and over while separating a ball or two at the other end.

 

[michael4]

I think a scratch is a loser. Archer will kick in the 1 and may get position on the 8 to get down under the rack for a break.

I agree with this answer, even I could kick the 1 ball in.

 

[alstl]

I think a scratch is a loser. Archer will kick in the 1 and may get position on the 8 to get down under the rack for a break.

What was the foul situation when Hohmann shot the masse?

The only potential problem with kicking at the one is a scratch because the one ball is deep in the pocket. The other option is to play defense like Crane does in this video at 8:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06-M12lQWE

The sequence is at the beginning of the match here - here

Today's players are great and I'm sure they could play with the old timers and probably win a good percentage of the time but when you watch that opening sequence I believe both Archer and Hohmann would have been in their chair against a guy like Crane with Crane having won the safety battle waiting for him to miss so they could get back to the table.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Masseing the CB to hit the one is really a bad selection - World Champ or not. Even if you make it, you gotta get lucky to get a good shot on the 8. You're likely just giving a hand-out to your opponent, which is exactly what happened. Johnny hit his shot terrible right after the UNICEF donation by Thorsten and followed the CB in the pocket.

Then Toasty shot the entirely wrong shot from where he was at and shot a flier when he didn't have to since JA was on a foul --- and hands JA a MOAB shot, pops the rack wide open and follows behind a ball, having nada. Wow... sheesh.

I couldn't imagine, based on the OP, that this played out the way it did.

Each of them should have used a life-line and "phoned a friend" and called Bobby Hunter in the booth to tell them how to play that initial sequence... he was right, imo. Explosive talent always overcomes brains though. That's why Efren was so fun to watch, he had both.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The only potential problem with kicking at the one is a scratch because the one ball is deep in the pocket. ....

To me the one ball looks like it's by the long rail so the scratch is impossible if you shoot nearly parallel to the long rail. I agree that in general you have to worry about such a thing. But scratching after the one ball gives ball in hand to Hohmann with nothing to kick at.

 

[alstl]

To me the one ball looks like it's by the long rail so the scratch is impossible if you shoot nearly parallel to the long rail. I agree that in general you have to worry about such a thing. But scratching after the one ball gives ball in hand to Hohmann with nothing to kick at.

I just watched the video, it's actually the five ball hanging in the pocket.

You are a far better player than I so I hesitate to disagree but Archer did indeed follow the five in and scratch. Without the five hanging in the pocket Hohmann's options increase.

We both agree the op's idea of shooting the cue ball into the corner pocket is a bad idea.

I have a question. Was the Balsis shot in that video just prior to Crane's two rail bank a standard safe? It almost looked like Crane expected it the way he immediately banked two rails into the back of the stack.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I just watched the video, it's actually the five ball hanging in the pocket.

You are a far better player than I so I hesitate to disagree but Archer did indeed follow the five in and scratch. ...

Place the cue ball exactly between the 8 and 5, shoot out of the kitchen to the foot rail and back to the 5. There is no scratch in that shot. That is roughly the shot I imagine Archer would have tried if Hohmann had pocket scratched.

When Archer shot the 5 (and scratched) his cue stick was more or less over the lower left corner foot pocket. That's a very different approach angle than the kick from the kitchen would be.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I have a question. Was the Balsis shot in that video just prior to Crane's two rail bank a standard safe? It almost looked like Crane expected it the way he immediately banked two rails into the back of the stack.

When your opponent is on a foul, and the rack is unbroken, and you have ball in hand, it is never the right shot to play a safe off the rack. You may get a safe sometimes, but the percentages are against you. None of the old time players would ever shoot towards the balls in that situation.

The goal of the shot you do shoot is to leave the cue ball frozen to the center of the head rail. The two standard ways to do that are to play the cue ball two cushions off the foot rail/side rail (just missing the rack) or to do as Balsis did.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

When your opponent is on a foul, and the rack is unbroken, and you have ball in hand, it is never the right shot to play a safe off the rack. You may get a safe sometimes, but the percentages are against you. None of the old time players would ever shoot towards the balls in that situation.

The goal of the shot you do shoot is to leave the cue ball frozen to the center of the head rail. The two standard ways to do that are to play the cue ball two cushions off the foot rail/side rail (just missing the rack) or to do as Balsis did.

Bob---

I see a lot of people do just as you described -- taking an intentional and not touching the rack, basically going two rails trying to kiss the CB to the center of the head rail.

If you actually DO that, it's devastating to your opponent.

In practice, however, it's really tough to get to that exact point. If you lose the CB just a hair and end up to one side or the other, you leave yourself vulnerable two shots later if they come behind the rack "well." If that happens, you now have to shoot out of it without selling-out on the balls they just opened-up.

Even if you get to the center of the head rail, but don't kiss and give-up the bottom of the CB, you can respond with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=genwjANodF8

I guess my point is unless you're really good at getting that CB to the center of the head rail, isn't it better to just take the intentional and come from behind the rack and just move a ball or two out? If you do, now's there's a threat from sending the CB back into the kitchen.

I suppose the reasoning of not touching the undisturbed rack is so you don't have a ball sink on you when coming from behind. But, if you're really comfy with not selling out in that fashion, isn't it better to leave the opponent in a guaranteed stuck position with balls spread?

Or, another could be if you're playing an idiot who thinks they have to make a good shot, they might try to clip the corner ball and try something similar to an opening break and leave you a follow-up shot. If you're playing an idiot, however, what are the odds of them beating you to begin with -- so why not come from behind the rack to begin with in order to put yourself in position to put up a score?

I hope all of that makes sense. I always thought the first person to have a non-kissing shot with balls spread has the % advantage -- and that would be you if he dogs his first shot off the back of the rack.

Your thoughts?

 

[alstl]

When your opponent is on a foul, and the rack is unbroken, and you have ball in hand, it is never the right shot to play a safe off the rack. You may get a safe sometimes, but the percentages are against you. None of the old time players would ever shoot towards the balls in that situation.

The goal of the shot you do shoot is to leave the cue ball frozen to the center of the head rail. The two standard ways to do that are to play the cue ball two cushions off the foot rail/side rail (just missing the rack) or to do as Balsis did.

One more question. What should Hohmann have done after Archer scratched on the 5?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Even if you get to the center of the head rail, but don't kiss and give-up the bottom of the CB, you can respond with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=genwjANodF8 ...

I think if anyone wanted to try a challenge -- player A shoots the two-rail behind the rack hard to get to a cushion and the game continues until someone gets on a run and then B shoots the two-rail to just move a few balls and continue until the safeties are won -- I think player B wins in the long run. One small stipulation: the hard shooter only gets five minutes to warm up on the table and he can't shoot the specific shot for the safe.

From the center of the head rail, I'd rather shoot Crane's two-rail to skim the side of the rack and return to the head rail, if I'm going to try a circus shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I guess my point is unless you're really good at getting that CB to the center of the head rail, isn't it better to just take the intentional and come from behind the rack and just move a ball or two out? ...

If the other player is on the first foul, I think you're not supposed to move the rack unless you can play a very strong safe. An example would be if you have just the right position by the side of the rack so you can play the standard "send balls to two cushions and freeze to the rack" safe. This is a safe that is consistently overlooked by beginners, presumably because they don't know how certain it is to leave a tough situation.

But if the safe you are about to play while your opponent is on the first foul will hit the balls and leave a mediocre safe or even a shot, I think you are better off not hitting the rack. There are usually good or at least adequate safes off the back of the rack if the cue ball has been sent softly into it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

One more question. What should Hohmann have done after Archer scratched on the 5?

Hohmann at that point was on the first foul as he had failed to get to a cushion on the masse shot. One shot is to simply roll the cue ball onto the top of the rack as the commentators mention. The 8 is not a reasonable shot from there and the safety battle will probably continue. The cut that Hohmann tried is only a good shot if you make it. If it hangs up, you've just lost a rack or three. Even if you make it, nothing good is guaranteed.

 

[alstl]

Hohmann at that point was on the first foul as he had failed to get to a cushion on the masse shot. One shot is to simply roll the cue ball onto the top of the rack as the commentators mention. The 8 is not a reasonable shot from there and the safety battle will probably continue. The cut that Hohmann tried is only a good shot if you make it. If it hangs up, you've just lost a rack or three. Even if you make it, nothing good is guaranteed.

I agree, either roll it into the top of the stack or bank and stick against the bottom of the stack. Once the balls were open that match was world class 14.1 but the safety sequence at the beginning left a lot of room for improvement.