I've seen match play where its winner breaks/loser racks. Next, the breaker while checking the rack will touch/snug up? the balls. Is this legal, acceptable or something else? It doesn't seem right....Opinions
Rack Grooming
- Thread starter Island Drive
- Start date
This seems pretty straightforward to me. It is the responsibility of the one who is racking to PHYSICALLY ensure the balls are properly set. Granted, the one who is breaking has a right to INSPECT the rack, but certainly should not touch the balls. I can imagine some excellent manipulators of the balls who can quickly touch a ball or two and create little gaps that could increase the chances of a more favorable break.
That would be unsportsmanlike IMO.
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So there are 2 dangers:
1. Breaker massages the balls to improve his chances of making one.
2. Racker slugs him.
In my lifetime, I've seen a lot more of #2 than #1 so I'd consider slugging the greater danger.
Massaging the balls to create a favorable gap isn't that easy and I suspect isn't very common.
Maybe that's naive. In 10b it certainly is a LOT easier to get slugged than to 'wire one up'.
Ideal solution is neutral racker, but if not, I'd say #2 is still the bigger danger.
So let the guy fix the balls if he doesn't like it. If the opponent suspects anything fishy is going on,
he has the right to inspect and to call over the TD...
"hey, they were froze when I finished and he introduced this gap right behind the wing ball!"
1. Breaker massages the balls to improve his chances of making one.
2. Racker slugs him.
In my lifetime, I've seen a lot more of #2 than #1 so I'd consider slugging the greater danger.
Massaging the balls to create a favorable gap isn't that easy and I suspect isn't very common.
Maybe that's naive. In 10b it certainly is a LOT easier to get slugged than to 'wire one up'.
Ideal solution is neutral racker, but if not, I'd say #2 is still the bigger danger.
So let the guy fix the balls if he doesn't like it. If the opponent suspects anything fishy is going on,
he has the right to inspect and to call over the TD...
"hey, they were froze when I finished and he introduced this gap right behind the wing ball!"
Here is what I think:
1) If opponent racks, breaker is not allowed to touch the rack but can inspect it and ask for a rerack
2) The breaker can ask the racker's permission to touch the rack. Often the gaps a racker leaves can be fixed easily.
3) All tournaments should be rack your own, game ball doesn't count anywhere on the break. (Or in 9 ball, at very least not in the back two corners).
4) The easiest rack to consistently pocket a ball in 9 ball is a totally frozen rack, every ball touching. That's what everyone should be striving for, especially in rack your own. The trajectory of the other balls is also more predictable. With a frozen rack, the corner ball is essentially wired...IF you know how to break.
Bottom line, if you don't like the rack, ask for a rerack. If you are the racker and the breaker asks for a rerack, rerack it. If you can't solve the problems that the breaker is concerned with, let the breaker do it. You can check it when he's done. There is NO NEED for animosity or defensiveness or any of the other crap people bring to that type of situation.
KMRUNOUT
1) If opponent racks, breaker is not allowed to touch the rack but can inspect it and ask for a rerack
2) The breaker can ask the racker's permission to touch the rack. Often the gaps a racker leaves can be fixed easily.
3) All tournaments should be rack your own, game ball doesn't count anywhere on the break. (Or in 9 ball, at very least not in the back two corners).
4) The easiest rack to consistently pocket a ball in 9 ball is a totally frozen rack, every ball touching. That's what everyone should be striving for, especially in rack your own. The trajectory of the other balls is also more predictable. With a frozen rack, the corner ball is essentially wired...IF you know how to break.
Bottom line, if you don't like the rack, ask for a rerack. If you are the racker and the breaker asks for a rerack, rerack it. If you can't solve the problems that the breaker is concerned with, let the breaker do it. You can check it when he's done. There is NO NEED for animosity or defensiveness or any of the other crap people bring to that type of situation.
KMRUNOUT
If the tournament rules are loser racks, then the breaker should inspect and ask for a re-rack if necessary.
It seems like most of the major tournaments have gone to Rack Your Own, probably to cut down on the arguments and time taken to agree on a rack. But it seems like any time gained is lost again with the winner trying to achieve a perfect rack. In watching some tournaments I've said "Geez, come on, you've re-racked the balls a dozen times...it ain't gonna get any better!"
Neutral racker is the best solution but their wages come out of the prize fund or another cost of the tournament.
It seems like most of the major tournaments have gone to Rack Your Own, probably to cut down on the arguments and time taken to agree on a rack. But it seems like any time gained is lost again with the winner trying to achieve a perfect rack. In watching some tournaments I've said "Geez, come on, you've re-racked the balls a dozen times...it ain't gonna get any better!"
Neutral racker is the best solution but their wages come out of the prize fund or another cost of the tournament.
What do you think about the idea of volunteer rackers? I personally would gladly rack
for free in exchange for front row seats to the match. On the other hand, many players will assume
any non-pro will not know how to rack properly, or the racker is on someone's payroll and will slug them.
The first time Earl breaks dry, some unpaid volunteer is going to have to put up with a raft of shit.
Still, I would have more faith that a volunteer would give it an honest effort, vs. my opponent.
With a magic rack + breaking from the corners, this is always true.
Without magic rack, breaking from the corners (and maybe cut-breaking) will work if the rack is near perfect.
But, breaking from the box? Then it's kind of a tossup... some players argue that
even with the magic rack the wing ball is not supposed to go breaking from the box.
There was a little controversy in the last US open when shane was breaking from the box, hitting the 1 ball right in the face,
and kept slotting the wing ball. Alex Pagulayan was giving Jay Helfert a hard time about it, complaining something fishy was happening.
On theory is that his racks happened to have a gap in the right place to make this happen... this is the one case where a small gap
is better than a perfectly tight rack, if you know where the gap needs to be and how to break it.
In 10b, I don't think any gaps are useful, though I've heard (and played around with) pushing the 1 ball down into the 2nd row balls,
splitting them slightly. I think this is effective not because of the gap it creates, but because it freezes the 1 on those balls.
Plus the balls are pushed out the rack a millimeter or two possibly helping them 'escape' more easily. They seem to move
towards the sides more rapidly.
My concern, I've seen breakers, after their opponent racked the balls, touch or push in balls slightly or something thereabouts. I think I saw that during Turning Stone.
That was the most annoying part of watching the turning stone stream. Everyone complained about racks until Earl got onto the stream table and just broke and ran out without ever checking the rack.
I don't get all the whining about racks and cleaning the cue ball after every 3 shots that seems rampant these days.
I don't get all the whining about racks and cleaning the cue ball after every 3 shots that seems rampant these days.
Earl complains about the racks just like anyone else, and has interrupted a player in the middle of a package
to insist on checking the rack (if the other guy has been racking his own).
He was doing that to Shane in an event a few months ago.
The turning stone recap says:
[earl] rolled over Mike Dechaine (9-6) in a match where both players challenged one another to a series of mind games
over the rack and cue ball break position
If you don't get it, watch Joe Tucker's video and you will.
You think all these top players obsess over the rack because they're just OCD?
They nitpick over the rack because it basically decides who wins.
There was a lot more of that going on at Turning Stone than you saw at the TV table. Players were constantly complaining about not being able to get a tight rack, and asking "Can I touch the 6 ball just a bit?" One top player claimed to me that he lost because his opponent "made a ball on the break seven times and I broke dry on every rack but one... what does that tell you?" It told me that he thought he gave good racks but his opponent deliberately gave him slugs. I have no way of knowing if it was true, but the top pro sure seemed upset about it.
Seating at TS allows you to sit quietly right behind the player's chairs, and I overheard a lot of rack talk amongst them. One player was going on about how a certain well-loved young champion won a very prestigious event by touching the back of the 9-ball rack to open it up and allow the balls to spread better. That would be cheating in my book, but as Vincent Lauria would say, "Everybody's doing it".
The shane gap thing was mentioned earlier, but it wasn't for a better spread, it's to help make a specific
ball in the corner pocket. If it happened. I'm still up in the air about that.
Alex Pagulayan complained and got Jay to come over there and Jay saw nothing wrong with Shane's racks.
Also Shane was apparently practicing and slotting in the wing ball and he said something like
"haha Earl watch this" (Earl was at the next table). I think someone said he was just laughing about it.
If Shane were going to actually cheat would he show Earl? Earl, who is first in line to inspect racks,
and to complain about players rigging the racks?
Anyway, it's so easy to fix, neutral racker and magic rack. This eliminates almost any chance of
someone screwing with the rack intentionally, or just accidentally slugging someone.
If the magic rack's automatic wing ball makes the game too boring for people, rack 9 on the spot
and require 3 balls past the side. Let the players figure out how to do a Mosconi Cup break.
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Was the Mosconi Cup always 9 on the spot?
Not sure how long they've played this way but I looked up older ones on youtube and
looks like it's been this way since at least the year 2000.
t's a pretty smart solution to the "9 ball break is so easy it's boring" complaint.
The wing ball is much less likely to go and you need to do a cut break to make it happen.
Cut break = semi-wild cue ball (at least compared to a standard break where you park the CB)
so there's some drama and unpredictability. Players have resorted to playing the 1 in the side
but that means your next ball is a crapshoot, who knows where the 2 will end up.
So basically, you can still make a ball with some practice and skill, but the runout is far
from automatic even if you master the break.
In some tournaments I have heard the rule, "NO TOUCHING BALLS AFTER RACK IS REMOVED".
If the breaker can touch the balls, why can't he tap them in too?
Don't think anyone should be able to touch rack after rack is removed. Also, don't think 9 ball should count in the bottom two corners on the break.
JoeyA
If the breaker can touch the balls, why can't he tap them in too?
Don't think anyone should be able to touch rack after rack is removed. Also, don't think 9 ball should count in the bottom two corners on the break.
JoeyA
With the magic rack and breaking from the box, you can hit the 1 ball dead square and make the corner ball, but only at the right speed (very very soft). You could also influence the trajectory of the wing ball with follow and draw. Without magic rack and breaking from the box, you can do the same exact thing assuming the balls are pretty well frozen. I have seen the wing ball go in with the magic rack in pretty much every conceivable situation (when I have racked them and know they are all frozen). So this leads me to believe that some of the variables that influence the trajectory of the wing ball are under the control of the breaker (whether they know it or not.)
KMRUNOUT
Happens alot and should not be allowed. John B.
Foul....................is more my thinking.
But touchin' a rack that you personally had inspected and was acceptable to yourself, is way different. than any other type of Move,
''No pun intended''
YOUR PLAYING WITH MY BALLS....That will never fly in the pool room.