The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[Paul Schofield]

You say other sports don't have this. Actually they all do.
- In the NBA, only one hoop is permitted. Not "any hoop will do".
- In the NFL, only one endzone is valid for a touchdown.
- One hole isn't as good as any other in golf.
- If you score on your own goalie in soccer, trust me, you don't get credited a point.
The opponent gets the advantage, as they should, because you blatantly screwed up!

I don't know what you are talking about. The sports you mention can run many plays prior to scoring. We do the same by, what amounts to the same thing, clearing the table so that we can score on a pay-ball. I think that sports are better off if they don't have to declare who and how a player is going to kick, pass, run, or hit the ball.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Paul, your previous 8 Ball tournaments must have been excruciatingly painful events where none of the players enjoyed themselves if going to slop has made such a noticeable change. And all the dead money bangers have joined in the party too. It's terrific you've had such a turnaround.

Question, how many nights a week, if any, do you have APA leagues in your room?

 

[Johnnyt]

I owned a poolroom for 8 years and had two tight tables for the players and 5" for the bangers. In most poolrooms there are far more bangers than players. Bangers like to make balls and most don't care what pocket the ball goes in. You need to give both groups what they want if you want them to come back. Johnnyt

 

[chefjeff]

I owned a poolroom for 8 years and had two tight tables for the players and 5" for the bangers. In most poolrooms there are far more bangers than players. Bangers like to make balls and most don't care what pocket the ball goes in. You need to give both groups what they want if you want them to come back. Johnnyt

Ain't that the truth! I had a good player tell me he doesn't want to go to the local hall as the tables are too tight. He doesn't like missing so often. He's good, but he doesn't like pockets that rob him of so many shots. He said it takes the fun out of it.

So, he's not spending money at the pool hall anymore. ahem

Paul, go get 'em, man. Do your thing...and let us know how it works for ya. FYI...the oldest pool league here in town (circa 1960's) has not had call shot ever and it doesn't ever require the shooter to drive a ball to a rail after contact (that rule sucks and causes problems sometimes, but...).

Jeff Livingston

 

[CreeDo]

I don't know what you are talking about. The sports you mention can run many plays prior to scoring. We do the same by, what amounts to the same thing, clearing the table so that we can score on a pay-ball. I think that sports are better off if they don't have to declare who and how a player is going to kick, pass, run, or hit the ball.

And nobody declares "who and how" you have to bank, cut, kick, or carom a pool shot.
But they DO declare you need to hit your single intended target.
Just like an NBA player or golfer must hit his single intended target.

This is not pinball. You don't hit a horrible drive on the 8th hole
and then raise your arms in triumph if the golf ball drops in the 9th hole.

 

[Paul Schofield]

And nobody declares "who and how" you have to bank, cut, kick, or carom a pool shot.
But they DO declare you need to hit your single intended target.
Just like an NBA player or golfer must hit his single intended target.

This is not pinball. You don't hit a horrible drive on the 8th hole
and then raise your arms in triumph if the golf ball drops in the 9th hole.

Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I am not trying to sell it. I am trying to understand why the rules are working so well and players are enjoying the game of Eight-Ball so much. I don't care what you do. You can play this game however you like. I am saying this: "I am doing something different and it is working well. I think this is the reason why.... Try it if you like."

 

[Donny Lutz]

No thanks. No slop for me.

Hey Neil, I am not proposing anything. I am telling you what I am doing. I do things. If they work out, I share them with everyone. It is all voluntary. You do whatever you want to do and play however you want to play. It's all good.

To answer your question, all you have to do is ask yourself "What are all the ways that a weaker player wins?" Look for ways to adjust rules that diminish his chances but at the same time are more pleasing for him. I think the called ball could be going against human nature for most people. I can only summize that all other sports view "having to call stuff" way over the top.

A weaker can often win by pure luck...the game itself is an equalizer.

A weaker player can be given a "spot" or handicap[.

A weaker player can win because he or she IS IMPROVING his/her game.

Granted, many players just love slop. But one the other hand, if the APA approach is so popular, why have some 700,000 players walked away from APA leagues...?

It's just my opinion, but after almost 59 years of play, organizing and teaching, I don't think playing "call pocket" ever hurt the game. And when I was a kid, I watched the best players play call 9-ball, too. I agree with Buddy Hall, "call" is the way.

 

[sfleinen]

Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I am not trying to sell it. I am trying to understand why the rules are working so well and players are enjoying the game of Eight-Ball so much. I don't care what you do. You can play this game however you like. I am saying this: "I am doing something different and it is working well. I think this is the reason why.... Try it if you like."

Paul:

Pffft -- you're back-pedaling. By posting about it in the way you are, you *ARE* selling it -- especially with the copious, "going well," "no complaints," "I can't understand why 8-ball is played call-shot" lettuce-and-tomato-garnishing verbiage.

That technique is a sales pitch. You're being evasive because people see right through it.

-Sean

 

[3kushn]

I apologize for my earlier post. Since I don't play 8Ball I don't know the rules. Now I do.

Not to derail this any more than it has
Wasn't there a time when 8Ball didn't require calling your shot?
Is it call the shot or call the pocket? Cushions and caroms are or aren't required on the call?

 

[Paul Schofield]

I often wonder if our game has been hijacked over the years by anal personality types: Calling all the balls, tightening down the pockets, tidy little perfect racking gadgets, ten foot tables, stifling rules, move to Ten-Ball. Jay Helfert has mentioned many times that our short games have become sterile.


anal personality [( ayn -l)]

A popular term for “anal retentive personality,” a personality marked by excessive orderliness, extreme meticulousness, and often suspicion and reserve.

 

[sfleinen]

I often wonder if our game has been hijacked over the years by anal personality types: Calling all the balls, tightening down the pockets, tidy little perfect racking gadgets, ten foot tables, stifling rules, move to Ten-Ball. Jay Helfert has mentioned many times that our short games have become sterile.


anal personality [( ayn -l)]

A popular term for “anal retentive personality,” a personality marked by excessive orderliness, extreme meticulousness, and often suspicion and reserve.

This is also the hallmark of those that cling to the signposts of the far extremes. I.e. "call everything" (horsecrap bar/house rules) or your "call nothing."

The game has enough of the luck/excitement factor built in.

Do you know the meaning of the word, "moderation"? Are you one of those that can't distinguish among many shades of gray, and instead cling to the extremes of either black or white?

How about these?

hard-lin·er

noun
1. a member of a group who adheres uncompromisingly to a set of ideas or policies.​

fa·nat·ic

noun
1. a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal.​

-Sean

 

[YubaCushion]

I'm just playing along for the sake of the argument (we play called pocket here when we aren't playing league) so tell me why its ok in 9-ball and not in 8-ball....

Because someone got tired of missing shots and they wanted to play a game they could finish. Just kidding. I don't know the history of nine ball maybe the Chicago museum guy could tell me, but I think they made 9 rules like that from the start. Where 8 ball I believe has always been call shot. That is why it's ok.

 

[Paul Schofield]

hard-lin·er

noun
1. a member of a group who adheres uncompromisingly to a set of ideas or policies.​

fa·nat·ic

noun
1. a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal.​

-Sean

I don't get this. I am the guy trying something new. Who are you? If what I put out there bothers you, just don't read it.

 

[CreeDo]

Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I am not trying to sell it. I am trying to understand why the rules are working so well and players are enjoying the game of Eight-Ball so much. I don't care what you do. You can play this game however you like. I am saying this: "I am doing something different and it is working well. I think this is the reason why.... Try it if you like."

Hey that's all good, you're enjoying slop in pool and you feel it's fine for your tournaments too. Not unreasonable.
I just thought your comparison to other sports didn't hold water because most other sports don't permit slop.
Not if we're defining it as "you can put the ball in the wrong target and still score".

On the other hand, pool and the NFL couldn't be more apples-and-oranges so who cares?

You're saying slop works and there are no complaints in the tournaments you've tried.
I wonder, if there were complaints would some of them never reach your ears?
And if they did reach your ears, would you go on to post here and say "I was wrong, there were some complaints"?

I've never seen a tournament among serious players where someone didn't get salty about slop.
Even in 9b where it's a given. If slop adds fun for APA 3's and 4's, god bless 'em.
They can have their 5-dollar fun slop tournaments and I have no issue with that.

Do any GOOD players want it?
If you took a poll among US Open 8b entrants, what do you think they'd say?

 

[sfleinen]

I don't get this. I am the guy trying something new. Who are you? If what I put out there bothers you, just don't read it.

Nope, you're the one putting innuendos out there that people are "anal retentive" for either a.) being able to adapt to the current system, or b.) for making things a bit more stringent for the pros (and pros specifically).

You're the one using stuff that applies to pro tournaments (e.g. 10-ball, 10-foot tables, racking gimmicks, etc.) as "juice" for why the complete and utter opposite end of the spectrum should be done in the amateur ranks, and how this complete and utter opposite should "creep up" to be the standard for the pros as well (the innuendo is definitely there).

That's a form of extremism. But hey, if you're trying it and it works, great. But please don't come on here saying you're not selling it. You most definitely are.

-Sean

 

[Paul Schofield]

One guy said to me "What if a guy is on the 8 and he has no shot and he just slams the ball with the hope of it finding a pocket?"

I replied "Did you ever hear of the "Hail Mary Pass?" If it works for them, why not us?

Even when you do not have a shot, there is skill and knowlege needed to increase the probabilities of fluking a ball into a pocket. Today, if your opponant misses and leaves you no shot and no pocket, you have no way to win (or at least keep you turn at the table).

In these times when we have lost half of all our players, it is not a bad idea to question everything, look inward, and examine our games.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I often wonder if our game has been hijacked over the years by anal personality types: Calling all the balls, tightening down the pockets, tidy little perfect racking gadgets, ten foot tables, stifling rules, move to Ten-Ball. Jay Helfert has mentioned many times that our short games have become sterile.


anal personality [( ayn -l)]

A popular term for “anal retentive personality,” a personality marked by excessive orderliness, extreme meticulousness, and often suspicion and reserve.

I think there are many, many more people in the world whos minds function more like Oscar Madison than there are Felix Unger types. The history off our game in the last 20 years is to ratchet everything down and tighten everything up. I am trying to loosen things up a bit and make pool a little more inclusive. The better player is going to win anyway.

 

[sixpack]

I have to give Paul some props for trying something different. I prefer 8-ball with no calling shots/pockets. I don't think it gives much (or any) increased chance of winning to the lesser player. I think calling shots is a stupid waste of time.

Most people think slopping balls in is the luck in 8-ball. Honestly according to the rules the biggest luck factor is which set of balls you get. The weaker the player bigger problem it is if you get stuck with the set that's more difficult to win with. So as long as it's still open after the break I'm good.

 

[Cornerman]

I love slop 8-ball. I find it more entertaining. And I love the ability to double bank.

Of all the things that are wrong with pool, slop 8-ball ranks very low, IMO.

Freddie <~~~ pretty low on the rank, too

 

[justadub]

Because someone got tired of missing shots and they wanted to play a game they could finish. Just kidding. I don't know the history of nine ball maybe the Chicago museum guy could tell me, but I think they made 9 rules like that from the start. Where 8 ball I believe has always been call shot. That is why it's ok.

That's all well and good, but "that's the way its always been" doesn't answer the question.

With all the deep thinkers here, we should be able to get to the point of this. Why is slop ok in 9-ball, but so terribly wrong in 8-ball?

Again, I'm not campaigning for slop, despite the fact that I'm an APA player. We play call pocket all the time here, hell, the 8 even has to go in clean. I'm used to it. I simply wonder why there is all this hue and cry about slop in 8-ball, compared to 9-ball.

Give Paul credit, he's not afraid to try things. Just because "that's the way its always been done" doesn't seem to faze him.