$200 for a billiard university diploma!!

[Tony_in_MD]

I have enough to know to not put any money into a Minnesota Fats pool table.

Does that qualify me?

DOESN'T ANYBODY HAVE ANY CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AROUND HERE?

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[336Robin]

Diploma?

It is a terrific test. I haven't taken it myself but I've watched people take it. Much work must have been put into it and I'm sure people have enjoyed and benefitted from taking it.

That being said, why would you or anyone else want to pay $200 for a (diploma?). Frankly, If you've spent money on worse things I don't want to hear about it. What does this diploma signify? They are conferring upon you a designation of accomplishment that exists only in academic institutions. It's simply incongruous with games like pool.

I have no family members or friends who are serious pool players, but if any of them came into my basement and saw that I had a diploma that says I was a doctorate in pool I'm sure they would immediately break out laughing. They wouldn't be laughing at me. They would be laughing with me. My family and friends are intelligent people and although they're not pool players, they would obviously think I bought it and a novelty store because any intelligent person knows that possessing a diploma that states you're a doctorate in pool is ridiculous.

If that's not the case with you, why don't you go to a print shop and have them make you a diploma that says you're a doctorate in pool. It will cost a whole lot less than $200. So maybe you don't want to do do that? You're probably an honest person and you don't want to deceive people by putting a fraudulent diploma on your wall. If that's the case, tell me what is legitimate about the diplomas these pool instructors give out.

These 8 instructors and or pool writers devised a fine pool test. So after seeing the results of the test they now say, In our minds, you're a doctorate in pool. Send me $150 and I'll post that information that in our minds your a doctorate in pool. You've really spent $150 on worse things? As I said, I don't want to hear about it.

Hisboyelroy,

Well if you go to college you pay your tuition up front. Here you are allowed to enjoy the material and allowed to gain the skills that are gained simply by working with it. So you and your pool buddies don't have to pay a dime to compete to see who can score higher. You don't have to buy the diploma. Why all the fuss?

Lets just say for instance that you might want to teach someone to play. Someone is interested in pool and asks you to show them how. So what do you know?

Perhaps the material could enhance your ability to do that. Perhaps the credential could be a part of you showing your student that you have done more with your game than simply learning the hard way.

Organized practice and that is a lot of what this is, is a way to improve ones game.

This simply says.... I have done this much for my game. I understand the principles of what it takes to get my game to the level as ascribed by authors of this program. The last time I checked the authors play pretty well. It tells your student that you care enough about the game of pool to stand up to a test that others have done before you. It puts you into an elite club and that is something worth paying for.

Those dignified friends of yours might respect the fact that you have a sheepskin on your wall that says you care about your pool game. If I were coming over to play and saw it I would surely ask about it and from there I would feel free to ask you a lot more about your understanding of all things....Pool.

Pool is a great way to make friends and $200 dollars isn't going to break anyone and it might cause you to collect more friends who love the game. What is that truly worth? Friends are great addition to life and I wouldn't take $1000 for any of mine.

They might laugh with you, or at you for paying $200 dollars for your diploma but when put your game down and show them your excellent play, the laughing will stop and the listening will begin. The wrapper on the product might look a little funny but the proof is in the product. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[justadub]

I have no problems with pool sites listing the accomplishments of players as apposed to handing out plaques. You're completely missing the point.

I have a problem with these instructors deceiving people into thinking they're professors at a pool university

How are we being "deceived"? Why can these instructors not be considered "professors"? Is there some standard somewhere that states who can and who cannot be called a professor?

and deceiving people into thinking that as professors at a pool university they have the legitimacy to award people academic degrees in pool

Why do they not have the legitimacy to award diplomas from their own institution? Why are these diplomas not able to be considered "academic" so far as a measure of demonstrating proficiency at a certain level? Those levels are noted and described for the student at the outset. The folks from BU have all the legitimacy in the world to award people as to having completed their curriculum.

and simply pocket $150 because they believe people who receive these degrees are being privileged by having these degrees bestowed on them by instructors of such high esteem as they believe of themselves.

Now we're getting to your actual point. It's all about the money. You are upset that these folks are making money, and you are crying about it here. How many people do you imagine are actually purchasing the diploma? Perhaps a few, but I expect its not a terribly big number. Why do you care if those 8 instructors split $200, when they have contributed a tremendous amount of time creating this University? And they have shared ALL of the University material to the world FOR FREE.

The only "pay" they are getting out of this is $200, split 8 ways (if in fact that is the agreement, only they know and I really don't think it matters) after the expenses of material, printing and postal costs. From a likely handful of people who actually follow through and pony up the money. They aren't sitting back on their yachts, laughing at all the stupid pool players they are taking advantage with their University.

DOESN'T ANYBODY HAVE ANY CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AROUND HERE?

Yes. Many of us have actual critical thinking skills around here.

 

[dr_dave]

... the test devised by the instructors who claim to be professors at billiard university is a fine test. For all I know it is the best assessment of pool skill test ever invented. I'm sure many players have benefited from taking the test and it has enriched their pool lives

Thank you for trying to see the positives.

My problem is with the devisors of this test claim that the game of pool is an academic discipline commensurate with academic disciplines taught at academic universities and that they are professors at some billiard university and this test was devised at some sort of billiard university and for $200 dollars they will award you an academic degree in pool.

This is where your misunderstanding lies. The BU is not an "academic" institution, and it does not offer "degrees." The BU exams provide a pool workout and they can be used to rate and track pool-playing skills over time. We use the word "university" in our organization name because everything we offer has a "university" theme. We have a "Dean" and "Registrar." We offer a "summer school" program. We have "exams" and offer "diplomas" (not academic "degrees"). We have "instructors," some of whom are designated as "professors." We offer "instructional materials" (DVDs and online resources) that allow a pool player to "learn" important pool "knowledge." I personally think the "university" analogy is very appropriate.

Again, the BU is not an academic institution that offers accredited academic degrees. I'm very surprised you or other would perceive it that way.

What do you think would have been a more appropriate name, based on what we offer?

They are consciously or unconsciously targeting people without critical thinking skills and trying to take their money.

You have the right to your own opinion. In my opinion, you have an extremely negative and bitter outlook on things. I am sorry the BU disturbs you so much. If the BU had a counseling center (as most academic universities do), I would suggest that you visit it to discuss your feelings with a psychological counselor; but unfortunately, since we are not an academic institution, we don't offer such services. :frown:

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Think of it in a similar fashion to a Tae Kwon Do student paying for the privilege of testing for their Black Belt. They take lessons, pay a fee and take a test. If they meet the standards of the "school" they get a new belt and perhaps a certificate or diploma that states their accomplishment. Does that black belt mean they can hold their own on the street? It probably depends on the person. Do the instructors and school have the ability to market their instruction and ranking/certificate programs? Of course they do. It's called marketing. If people perceive the acknowledgement/degree as having value then they will pay for it. If they don't, they won't. Haters goin' to hate or some other such saying popularized in popular culture.

Excellent analogy, and excellent post. Thank you for your insightful and helpful perspective.

Thank you,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

I have no problems with pool sites listing the accomplishments of players as apposed to handing out plaques. You're completely missing the point. I have a problem with these instructors deceiving people into thinking they're professors at a pool university and deceiving people into thinking that as professors at a pool university they have the legitimacy to award people academic degrees in pool and simply pocket $150 because they believe people who receive these degrees are being privileged by having these degrees bestowed on them by instructors of such high esteem as they believe of themselves.
DOESN'T ANYBODY HAVE ANY CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AROUND HERE?

I see no effort to deceive people. What they are trying to do is highly transparent.

Personally, I see them using the model of a university to provide a structured methodology to give those inclined a path to improve their pool playing skills. There are many, many people who need or can benefit from a structured approach, such as BU offers. And to run it and review tapes and scores takes time and effort, so the monies paid out should not be a big deal.

The interesting thing, as I read it, is that if you don't care about the diploma (or don't want to spend the dough) you can still learn from their web site, take the tests, and benefit with out spending a penny. That's as honest a deal as you can get.

Lou Figueroa

 

[dr_dave]

I see no effort to deceive people. What they are trying to do is highly transparent.

Personally, I see them using the model of a university to provide a structured methodology to give those inclined a path to improve their pool playing skills. There are many, many people who need or can benefit from a structured approach, such as BU offers. And to run it and review tapes and scores takes time and effort, so the monies paid out should not be a big deal.

The interesting thing, as I read it, is that if you don't care about the diploma (or don't want to spend the dough) you can still learn from their web site, take the tests, and benefit with out spending a penny. That's as honest a deal as you can get.

Lou Figueroa

Thanks Lou! I think that summarizes things very clearly and accurately.

Maybe you should be the BU "Ombudsman."

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[B8kill3r]

LOL, sure is LOL

 

[randyg]

Dr. Dave to the rescue.

Thanks Dr. Dave. You sure said it better that I even thought it.

randyg
BU Instructor

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Can I be the staff psychologist?

You have the right to your own opinion. In my opinion, you have an extremely negative and bitter outlook on things. I am sorry the BU disturbs you so much. If the BU had a counseling center (as most academic universities do), I would suggest that you visit it to discuss your feelings with a psychological counselor; but unfortunately, since we are not an academic institution, we don't offer such services. :frown:

Catch you later,
Dave

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[dr_dave]

You have the right to your own opinion. In my opinion, you have an extremely negative and bitter outlook on things. I am sorry the BU disturbs you so much. If the BU had a counseling center (as most academic universities do), I would suggest that you visit it to discuss your feelings with a psychological counselor; but unfortunately, since we are not an academic institution, we don't offer such services. :frown:

Can I be the staff psychologist?

Are you sure about that? Would you really want to deal face to face with the type of "clients" that might be referred to you? From what I have gathered from this thread, they would probably expect the services to be free, and they would probably not be very pleasant or friendly. :frown:

As Dean, I will keep you under consideration for the position,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Like Pathetic Shark, I can see some of 'Elroy's' points & I think his objections has to do with the College/Diploma aspect.
But...if no one is being mislead then why would anyone have any real objections?

I certainly do not think that Dr. Dave intends to mislead anyone. However, there seems to be room for a misunderstanding that can result in a difference of opinion as 'Elroy' has displayed.

What if a high school kid beats a BU Doctorate on a rec hall table does that make him a Doctor of Billiards too?

What if a World Champion scores one point lower than the current high score, does that make Gerry a World Champion?

Perhaps it should be made clear that the 'diploma' thing is a bit of tongue in cheek & is not in anyway meant as a sign of 'graduation' of an entire curriculum.

In sports there are those that excel in practice & disappear come game time. Then there are those that do little in practice & perform exceptionally well in actual competitive games. They are called gamers.

I can understand Dave paralleling the college format but I can also see it being a bit out of place too, as 'Elroy' does, perhaps due to the proficiency of execution aspect. Perhaps Rufus's martial arts analogy would be more appropriate. You have been certified as a 'Blue or Brown Linen Wrap Cueist'.

AND NO Neil, I do not have multiple accounts & I doubt that 'Elroy' does either. If that is why y'all have jumped all over him for expressing his opinion, you all have made a mistake & have 'pounded' an innocent by stander.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dr. Dave,

Good Luck with the program.

But...perhaps you should define it VERY clearly as to just what it is. I can fore see some starting to boast that 'I kicked this guys a** that had this Doctorate of Billiards Diploma on his wall.' I won't say what they might say after that.

I hope you see my points.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[336Robin]

Dr. Dave,

Good Luck with the program.

But...perhaps you should define it VERY clearly as to just what it is. I can fore see some starting to boast that 'I kicked this guys a** that had this Doctorate of Billiards Diploma on his wall.' I won't say what they might say after that.

I hope you see my points.

Best Wishes,
Rick

Rick,
Its pretty clear what it is. All this guy wanted to know was why pay for it. Its simple if its not important enough to him to pay for it.....then don't. Enjoy the free stuff.

I don't think Dr. Dave or anyone owes an explanation although I think he already has given it above...if you read it. I think they are pretty upfront and if you're buying , you're buying if not....well why pay for the diploma if you're not.....

I find it hard not to understand their intentions.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,
Its pretty clear what it is. All this guy wanted to know was why pay for it. Its simple if its not important enough to him to pay for it.....then don't. Enjoy the free stuff.

I don't think Dr. Dave or anyone owes an explanation although I think he already has given it above...if you read it. I think they are pretty upfront and if you're buying , you're buying if not....well why pay for the diploma if you're not.....

I find it hard not to understand their intentions.

Hi Robin,

That's not how I see 'Elroys' objection. I doubt that he is interested in the diploma aspect of it at all. I see it as he went to the BU for helpful info & saw the 'diploma' program & takes exception with how it is represented as a serious 'University' for what 'appears' to be a 'credentialed diploma'.

While Dave has explained things there certainly seems to be room for misunderstanding on the site given 'Elroys' take. If one understands what it is & wants to pay $200 for recognition, why would 'Elroy' care how someone else spends their money.

I think he sees it as being ambiguously 'deceptive' & is concerned for those that might take it the wrong way.

If you assume something wrong & I allow you to do so, knowing full well that your assumption is a mistake & I do not correct your false assumption, what does that make me.

I am NOT saying that there is any 'bad' intention here.

However, perhaps it should be clarified more precisely.

That is up to Dr. Dave. If he thinks it is fine as is, so be it. If he sees a way to make it more clear & implements that, then all the better.

That's all I'm saying. Apparently, as 'Elroy' has displayed, it can be interpreted in a poor light.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I also jumped in to try to help as I saw him getting beaten up for expressing his opinion. I know a bit about that.

 

[Neil]

Like Pathetic Shark, I can see some of 'Elroy's' points & I think his objections has to do with the College/Diploma aspect.
But...if no one is being mislead then why would anyone have any real objections?

I certainly do not think that Dr. Dave intends to mislead anyone. However, there seems to be room for a misunderstanding that can result in a difference of opinion as 'Elroy' has displayed.

What if a high school kid beats a BU Doctorate on a rec hall table does that make him a Doctor of Billiards too?

What if a World Champion scores one point lower than the current high score, does that make Gerry a World Champion?
Total fail in using an analogy like that. That would be akin to saying you are now the world champion because you beat the world champ in a race to 9 in Bob's Pub weekly tournament.
Perhaps it should be made clear that the 'diploma' thing is a bit of tongue in cheek & is not in anyway meant as a sign of 'graduation' of an entire curriculum.

In sports there are those that excel in practice & disappear come game time. Then there are those that do little in practice & perform exceptionally well in actual competitive games. They are called gamers.
Yes, and there are those that do well in tournaments and fail in money games, and vice-versa. Did you see anywhere in the website that there was any kind of guarantee that if you reached a certain level in the tests, you would then be able to beat anyone that didn't score as high as you did?
I can understand Dave paralleling the college format but I can also see it being a bit out of place too, as 'Elroy' does, perhaps due to the proficiency of execution aspect. Perhaps Rufus's martial arts analogy would be more appropriate. You have been certified as a 'Blue or Brown Linen Wrap Cueist'.

AND NO Neil, I do not have multiple accounts & I doubt that 'Elroy' does either. If that is why y'all have jumped all over him for expressing his opinion, you all have made a mistake & have 'pounded' an innocent by stander.

The "pounding" was done by Elroy in his initial post. Interesting how you and one other feel that you guys are free to say whatever nonsense you want to, but if anyone dares say anything to the contrary, or tries to set the record straight, they are then the ones doing the pounding and insulting. He was corrected for what he said, not anything to do with you. I just find it interesting that you two so often agree completely on some things that the rest of the world sees differently. To think that he is innocent just because he might not be you, is ludicrous at best.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Well said.


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[Neil]

There's no need to insult him. He has a point, whether you like it or not. The fact virtually no one has done the test is testament to that.

Curious why you don't say anything to him about his insults?? Such as ...-anyone that does go for the diploma is stupid; anyone that administers the tests is a deciever; anyone that even thinks about doing it does not posses any critical thinking skills.

I, and those others with critical thinking skills look at the low numbers of applicants a little differently. There are a number of reasons more people haven't taken it. The largest being that people tend to get in a rut. They tend to just do the same basic things over and over. They go to play pool, they go to play someone. Seldom will a person actually care enough about improvement to actually break their routine and actually do something other than just playing with a friend. They tend not to practice alone, they tend not to do any drills, they tend not to take the test to see where they actually stand and then do the work necessary to improve. They say they want to improve, but they won't put in the work time to actually do so.

Some won't take it just because they don't want to face reality. They are afraid they will do poorly on it, and don't want to face that fact. Because if they do take it, then they will have shown to them in no uncertain terms that they are weak in certain areas that they thought they were strong in. Sometimes that is a hard thing to face- reality. But, until one does face reality, there can be no improvement.

What you will find by searching the posts of those that have taken it, are they are mostly the ones that are truly trying to improve on their own game. They are willing to do what it takes withing what time constraints they have to improve. They don't look for excuses of why they can't do something, instead, they look for ways to learn how to do something they currently can't do very well. And, you will also find they tend to be competitive people. There biggest competition being themselves, not an opponent. They are always testing themselves and trying to improve. Their are few people willing to do that.

Then, at the opposite end of the spectrum, you get those that are so unwilling to change themselves that they cannot test themselves at all. Instead, they take any test that could and would help them, and instead of allowing it to give them the satisfaction and knowledge they say they seek, they instead turn it around and slam the test. Such as the OP did here. Perfect opportunity to test himself against others without having to deal with his phobias of being around others. Yet, when it came down to it, he couldn't face reality. The reality of what the test might actually show him. So, instead of taking it, he condemns it and to have reason to do that, he then makes up how anyone else taking it is being decieved. Actually, I feel sorry for the guy. I won't just sit here and take his B.S., but yet I feel sorry that he has put himself is such a tight corner as he has, when it is really so easy to not be there.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

If you're confused about whether a website called Billiard University is a website where you can learn to play pool better or an accredited institution of higher learning you're probably someone who takes 2 hours to watch 60 minutes.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The "pounding" was done by Elroy in his initial post. Interesting how you and one other feel that you guys are free to say whatever nonsense you want to, but if anyone dares say anything to the contrary, or tries to set the record straight, they are then the ones doing the pounding and insulting. He was corrected for what he said, not anything to do with you. I just find it interesting that you two so often agree completely on some things that the rest of the world sees differently. To think that he is innocent just because he might not be you, is ludicrous at best.

It was YOU that mentioned my name & brought me into this.

Why would anyone speak their mind contrary to the 'Guardians of Pool', they have seen what they will get.

I have received more than several PMs to just that sentiment.

You are very sly in that you know how to insult within the confines of this forum. Believe me, many, many see you for what you are. Even if you yourself are delusional in that regard.

You take things literal when you want to do so & not when you do not.

You are one of the kings of nit picking & twisting words & causing distortions & deceptions & diversions & making out right false statements that are slanted for your purposes.

Apparently, but not necessarily, you are not aware of how disingenuous that makes you appear to rational people.

There are many words to describe you but they are not productive to any positive topic.

I sincerely hope you & your wife are doing well.