bad stroke with hard draw

JoeyA said:
I've often seen people refer to "faster" not "harder".

Can anyone tell me the difference between "faster" and "harder"? I assume we're talking about the stroke speed, if not please advise.

Are we talking about apples and oranges when we say "faster not harder"?

I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about these two words. I know Tramp will be coming in with some doozies but I'm looking for a little more serious responses.


Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

:smile:


I was thinking the same thing but just didn't want to get started.

You can shoot as fast or hard as you can but without being low enough on the cueball, and without the tip grabbing the cueball, it doesn't mean a thing.

All you need is just backspin at a lot of revelations per minute to get good draw.
And to do this, it doesn't have to be fast or hard.

Just need to get under the ball without miscuing.



Now fast or hard...different strokes for different folks. (Wow, that's an old saying!):smile:
 
JoeyA said:
I've often seen people refer to "faster" not "harder".

Can anyone tell me the difference between "faster" and "harder"? I assume we're talking about the stroke speed, if not please advise.

Are we talking about apples and oranges when we say "faster not harder"?

I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about these two words. I know Tramp will be coming in with some doozies but I'm looking for a little more serious responses.


Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

To me it's a timing thing. The proper application of force using the joints in their proper order for maximum acceleration. Anything you do increase the speed will give you better draw, but how you do that can be either through brute force (harder) or through improved technique ("faster"?). Good technique will keep you stroking straighter IMO.

I like a reasonably loose wrist so I can put some snap at the end of the stroke to increase the final speed of the cue. If you start your stroke with the hand cocked forward (ala CJ Wiley) you limit the amount of travel the cue has, and so must make up for it with increased muscular contraction. This looks tight to me, and while it may offer some folks improved accuracy at normal stroke speeds, it is difficult to maintain this when you power full on.

I teach my fly casting students to use a smooth and progressive stroke with the rod, not to try and muscle it. Using force to push the rod hard kills the speed of the casting stroke, whereas using a long fluid motion that is always increasing in velocity throughout the stroke coupled with a short but definite "power snap" with the wrist at the end of the stroke leads to higher rod tip velocity at the end of the stroke. This translates into increased distance of the cast.

My pool stroke timing is similar, only I'm a way better caster than I am a pool player (but I am working on it).
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
To me it's a timing thing. The proper application of force using the joints in their proper order for maximum acceleration. Anything you do increase the speed will give you better draw, but how you do that can be either through brute force (harder) or through improved technique ("faster"?). Good technique will keep you stroking straighter IMO.

I like a reasonably loose wrist so I can put some snap at the end of the stroke to increase the final speed of the cue. If you start your stroke with the hand cocked forward (ala CJ Wiley) you limit the amount of travel the cue has, and so must make up for it with increased muscular contraction. This looks tight to me, and while it may offer some folks improved accuracy at normal stroke speeds, it is difficult to maintain this when you power full on.

I teach my fly casting students to use a smooth and progressive stroke with the rod, not to try and muscle it. Using force to push the rod hard kills the speed of the casting stroke, whereas using a long fluid motion that is always increasing in velocity throughout the stroke coupled with a short but definite "power snap" with the wrist at the end of the stroke leads to higher rod tip velocity at the end of the stroke. This translates into increased distance of the cast.

My pool stroke timing is similar, only I'm a way better caster than I am a pool player (but I am working on it).
Click to expand...

The cocked wrist ("hammer grip") action pushes the cue foward as the wrist hinges, whereas the loose snapping wrist ("buggy whip") action drags the cue foward during the stroke...both accelerate foward, but one's a push the other's a pull. Both work. The acceleration in your stroke with the buggy whip is more gradual over the whole stroke, and shorter and more focused toward the end of your stroke with the hammer grip. The muscles in your forearm contract in a different order using the hammer grip, which is why if feels awkward at first, but once you get used to it, you can get every bit as much action. I haven't thought about it, but it might be a little less twitch speed in your forearm and more in your biceps with this method. You're absolutely right about the timing being the key part of it, regardless of your grip.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
To me it's a timing thing. The proper application of force using the joints in their proper order for maximum acceleration. Anything you do increase the speed will give you better draw, but how you do that can be either through brute force (harder) or through improved technique ("faster"?). Good technique will keep you stroking straighter IMO.

I like a reasonably loose wrist so I can put some snap at the end of the stroke to increase the final speed of the cue. If you start your stroke with the hand cocked forward (ala CJ Wiley) you limit the amount of travel the cue has, and so must make up for it with increased muscular contraction. This looks tight to me, and while it may offer some folks improved accuracy at normal stroke speeds, it is difficult to maintain this when you power full on.

I teach my fly casting students to use a smooth and progressive stroke with the rod, not to try and muscle it. Using force to push the rod hard kills the speed of the casting stroke, whereas using a long fluid motion that is always increasing in velocity throughout the stroke coupled with a short but definite "power snap" with the wrist at the end of the stroke leads to higher rod tip velocity at the end of the stroke. This translates into increased distance of the cast.

My pool stroke timing is similar, only I'm a way better caster than I am a pool player (but I am working on it).
Click to expand...

So "harder" means contracting or tensing the muscles in your stroking arm and using the power generated from the contraction/tensing of the muscles to propel the cue?

Faster means getting better cue speed by loosening the muscles and using better technique and timing?

Just trying to get this perspective clear in my mind.

JoeyA
 
Oneof the things that really helped me was fro Bert's advanced fundamentals or maybe it's the mighty X. But basically he teaches you how to find your alignment. And then after you master that part you learn to draw.
 
zach12345 said:
i have a pretty straight stroke when shooting soft to med shots but when i try to shoot a hard draw stroke i keep putting spin on the cueball. what could be causing this? i know its hard to tell without watching me play but any suggestions would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
FYI, five possible causes are listed on the draw technique advice resource page, which includes several online instructional videos that you might find useful. Also, specific advice and video demonstrations for power draw shots can found on the power draw technique resource page.

Good luck,
Dave
 
JoeyA said:
So "harder" means contracting or tensing the muscles in your stroking arm and using the power generated from the contraction/tensing of the muscles to propel the cue?

Faster means getting better cue speed by loosening the muscles and using better technique and timing?

Just trying to get this perspective clear in my mind.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

If we simplify it: I say yes Joey :-)

Let s imagine ( :p ) that the grip is *ok*. Then you would just need 2 muscles. Triceps and biceps. Here i am talking of course about a technique like pendulum stroke. Here it s all about the correct *set position*. Once this is *done*, you just have to pull back the cue smoothly (triceps) and then with a nice and smooth transition *pull* your cue into the forward motion- the forearm (if elbow is *rock solid like a statue :p ) will just be able to go forward (using the biceps).
Here we want to avoid any tension *in the grip*, because then we would cause again *forces* which could come from sideways.
This we want to avoid with a nice *loose* grip.

Hope it was readable and understandable enough :-)

lg
Ingo
 
JoeyA said:
So "harder" means contracting or tensing the muscles in your stroking arm and using the power generated from the contraction/tensing of the muscles to propel the cue?

Faster means getting better cue speed by loosening the muscles and using better technique and timing?

Just trying to get this perspective clear in my mind.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

In my mind, basically. Only I personally wouldn't have used the terms "faster" vs. "harder".

Either way, you need serious cue speed if you are attempting to draw the ball back from 8' away. For close shots I can get plenty of draw with a little soft nip through the bottom of the ball. It's those shots with a lot of green between CB and OB that separate the men from the boys IMHO.
 
The advanced method is to loosen the muscles in your.......

JoeyA said:
So "harder" means contracting or tensing the muscles in your stroking arm and using the power generated from the contraction/tensing of the muscles to propel the cue?

Faster means getting better cue speed by loosening the muscles and using better technique and timing?

Just trying to get this perspective clear in my mind.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

The advanced method is to loosen the muscles in your arm and forearm while keeping firm control of your hand/cue unit. (I also recommend coiling the shoulder, but that's a different topic for a another time).

In martial arts training we are taught to keep the fist very tight, while loosening the arm so that you get the necessary speed that produces power. When I talk about using a firm grip some people jump to the conclusion that I'm suggesting a firm arm/forearm and that's simply not the case, and it's a personal preference.

Your physical contact with the cue (in your hand/fingers) is the only thing that gives immediate feedback and touch so I recommend a "controlled grip," especially in the fingers. A Champion level player can use a looser grip, but only after mastering a firmer one first and will still use it when required. imho 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
JoeyA said:
I've often seen people refer to "faster" not "harder".

Can anyone tell me the difference between "faster" and "harder"? I assume we're talking about the stroke speed, if not please advise.

Are we talking about apples and oranges when we say "faster not harder"?

I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about these two words. I know Tramp will be coming in with some doozies but I'm looking for a little more serious responses.


Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

I've always felt it's the same thing. In my recent lesson Ralph Eckert said something like
"so you want to break harder... which means you want to break faster..." (something close to that).

The cue ball only knows how many mph the tip hit the contact point.
It doesn't know how much work, grunting and straining it took to get there.

But sometimes using a different word can change how a student hears and executes a suggestion.
Like "Swing harder" might not work for them but "swing faster" might cause them to swing significantly harder,
because it causes them to focus on the correct thing (getting the tip front point A to point B as soon as possible)
rather than the wrong thing (strain your arm and chest muscles as much as you can).

Sort of like how you can explain a jump shot a lot of different ways to people and one of them just clicks.
 
Got the same problem. Tensing up in anticipation of the shot leads to all kinds of problems: not standing still, twisting the wrist, not being loose and relaxed in the grip, hitting the wrong part of the CB etc. etc.
I have found that the only way to fix this is to rework my draw shot.
I`m far from perfect, but now i have more controll of the draw shot, the way i went about it was:
1. Focusing on standing still.
2. Staying down after the shot.
3. Using a tighter loop with my finger, so the cue has less movement, gloves solves friction issues.
4. Focusing on shooting smooth with a good follow through with proper acceleration.
5. Constantly focusing on acceleration as opposed to power.

Now i can draw pretty consistently across the table with not too much effort.

My draw problems stem from when i started to play pool, the fact that it`s called a draw shot made something in my head think that a good draw shot had anything to do with how fast you pull the cue back!
That stuck with me for a long time, sure i early on understood that it was the follow through that was the key, but i still kept that stupid jerking back wich i for some reason connected with the word draw...
 
CJ Wiley said:
In martial arts training we are taught to keep the fist very tight, while loosening the arm so that you get the necessary speed that produces power. When I talk about using a firm grip some people jump to the conclusion that I'm suggesting a firm arm/forearm and that's simply not the case, and it's a personal preference.
Click to expand...

We are? Lol

I was never taught that by anyone, and I had some very high-level teachers that I learned real-world stuff from, not karate kata. Tight fists = tension = reduced punching speed.

Just like in extreme draw strokes, speed is everything. Most modern fighting techniques call for a relaxed and loose hand to allow rapid extension of the arm. Boxers are usually trained the same way. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by tightening the fists until the very instant of impact, and it will slow you down guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZ4fL1pSRQ

Take it from Manny and keep the fists relaxed if you want to achieve blinding hand speed.:cool:

Even in kali stick fighting the hands are kept loose until the moment of impact. The stick just floats in the hand, while speed is built up from the feet, through the legs via a sharp weight switch, then the hips via a sharp rotation of the waist, then the shoulder, the arm, the wrist, the fingers, and finally you tighten down on the stick just before impact. This way of moving the stick was passed down to my teacher by Leo Gage himself in the Philippines. Gage's method is now the official hand fighting art of the military in the Philippines, so he must know something.;)
 
ok so went to play today and tried to apply the tips everyone gave me. I went in and placed an object ball at the side pocket and the cueball at the other side pocket. i tried to draw the cueball back into the sidepocket it started from. everytime i did this the cueball would go to my left with right hand (or inside) english. it does draw of course but it has spin.
also something else id like to point out is i am 6'4 tall. when i try to get down on the ball and level my cue, the butt hits the rail. should i be standing more upright so i can level my cue? again, i really appreciate all the comments everyone leaves
 
The cue doesn't have to be perfectly level, just as level as possible. If you're stroke seems to be swerving off to the right, trying ignoring the cue ball and deliver your cue straight at the object ball's contact point.
 
i dont know if its me just flinching when i draw? i put 2 balls at an end rail about 2 balls apart and shot it hard with top and let it go back and forth a few times and it got between them every time. no unintended spin. so idn what the deal is
 
zach12345 said:
i have a pretty straight stroke when shooting soft to med shots but when i try to shoot a hard draw stroke i keep putting spin on the cueball. what could be causing this? i know its hard to tell without watching me play but any suggestions would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Remember to accelerate to a firm stroke not sling into it. sounds simple but its something that when you feel what i'm saying its like 'oh ok'. also use those last few timing practice strokes to give yourself a feel of body position in practice. if you can't trace your alignment when you final strike the ball, your probably tensing up and using muscles not necessary which can cause some swerving of the cue. hope this helps
 
To each their own.

Sloppy Pockets said:
We are? Lol

I was never taught that by anyone, and I had some very high-level teachers that I learned real-world stuff from, not karate kata. Tight fists = tension = reduced punching speed.

Just like in extreme draw strokes, speed is everything. Most modern fighting techniques call for a relaxed and loose hand to allow rapid extension of the arm. Boxers are usually trained the same way. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by tightening the fists until the very instant of impact, and it will slow you down guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZ4fL1pSRQ

Take it from Manny and keep the fists relaxed if you want to achieve blinding hand speed.:cool:

Even in kali stick fighting the hands are kept loose until the moment of impact. The stick just floats in the hand, while speed is built up from the feet, through the legs via a sharp weight switch, then the hips via a sharp rotation of the waist, then the shoulder, the arm, the wrist, the fingers, and finally you tighten down on the stick just before impact. This way of moving the stick was passed down to my teacher by Leo Gage himself in the Philippines. Gage's method is now the official hand fighting art of the military in the Philippines, so he must know something.;)
Click to expand...

I'm impressed, but I still don't agree - I have a best friend here that's an expert in Kali Fighting Sticks and their grip is definitely tight except when spinning in exhibitions (this is with an open hand, but just for show and it's much easier to do). To each their own.

Hitting something with a loose fist is not a good idea, unless someone's had "Iron Palm" training, and then it's still not recommended unless you're not hitting anything. There's certainly many different techniques and if someone wants to hold their cue or "stick" loose that's their preference (of course). Personally I even hold my fork firm when I'm eating and toothbrush firm when brushing....so naturally it's consistent with golf, tennis, martial arts, and pool.
 
ighten up under pressure naturally, then you had better learn to naturally tighten up

Kim Bye said:
Got the same problem. Tensing up in anticipation of the shot leads to all kinds of problems: not standing still, twisting the wrist, not being loose and relaxed in the grip, hitting the wrong part of the CB etc. etc.
I have found that the only way to fix this is to rework my draw shot.
I`m far from perfect, but now i have more controll of the draw shot, the way i went about it was:
1. Focusing on standing still.
2. Staying down after the shot.
3. Using a tighter loop with my finger, so the cue has less movement, gloves solves friction issues.
4. Focusing on shooting smooth with a good follow through with proper acceleration.
5. Constantly focusing on acceleration as opposed to power.

Now i can draw pretty consistently across the table with not too much effort.

My draw problems stem from when i started to play pool, the fact that it`s called a draw shot made something in my head think that a good draw shot had anything to do with how fast you pull the cue back!
That stuck with me for a long time, sure i early on understood that it was the follow through that was the key, but i still kept that stupid jerking back wich i for some reason connected with the word draw...
Click to expand...


Playing with looseness is fine and dandy until someone's under extreme pressure...then everyone has a tendency to tighten up.

The legendary golfer, Ben Hogan said he played tournament golf with a "Nervous Tension" and I agree with that description. My position has always been if you're going to tighten up under pressure naturally, then you had better learn to naturally tighten up.

'The High Stakes Game is the Teacher'
 
Do you think holding it a little firmer might help? I grip loose and it seems like right before the tip makes contact I might be tensing up.
 
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