But ... if both players are of the same skill level, and both players play as if slop did not count (i.e., not trying to slop in shots), but one player gets to count slop on the rare occasions when it occurs and one player does not, then the player who gets to count slop has the advantage in the long run.
The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
But ... if both players are of the same skill level, and both players play as if slop did not count (i.e., not trying to slop in shots), but one player gets to count slop on the rare occasions when it occurs and one player does not, then the player who gets to count slop has the advantage in the long run.
Are you sure this is what you want me to see? You are making my point: hand manipulation of the balls and a gadget. This is a trick shot. I am sure he has practiced every aspect of the shot.
Secondly, we are talking about Eight-Ball. You came with Ten-Ball.
I watched the first player pattern rack the balls followed by pushing, spinning, rubbing, and fingering the balls more than 40 times in the first rack alone! I saw enough and I am not watching this nonsense. You can admire it all you want. I know this crap hurts our game.
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I agree that watching a guy spin the 1 ball constantly is dull. That problem is solved with the magic rack.
But of course you're against the magic rack because it disproves your claim that the break is random.
It's not random if the rack is TIGHT. Not "manipulated", simply TIGHT.
You can get a TIGHT rack without a magic rack, if you don't mind watching someone struggle to get
the 1 ball out of the divot that forms on the foot spot.
And BTW, people see through your clever use of language.
You take a harmless activity (making the rack tight) and relabel it as "hand manipulation" which makes it sound like cheating.
You take the most common shot in pool, done by millions of players every day, and derisively label it a "trick shot".
I don't understand why you cling to no-conflict breaking.
With the magic rack there's almost 0 wait for racking, the break is still exciting (always that 10% chance
of a scratch or bad roll to keep spectators engaged), and the outcome is predictable and fair,
for those who have put in the time and practice.
With no conflict, the outcome is predictable, but not so fair since the breaker need not practice
or even hit the balls hard... he gets rewarded the same as a guy who dedicated hours to his break.
The drama and "10% chance" are removed making it dull for spectators.
It effectively kills a shot that players love (for all the inherent flaws and so-called randomness of it).
manipulation...gadget...magical....ball spinning
Difficult for me not to think of Phil Hartman from SNL. Sorry I couldn't find a good video..
Announcer: [ over SUPER ] "One hundred thousand years ago, a caveman was out hunting on the frozen wastes when he slipped and fell into a crevasse. In 1988, he was discovered by some scientists and thawed out. He then went to law school and became.. Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
Jingle: "He used to be a caveman,
but now he's a lawyer.
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer!"
[ open on interior, courtroom, the Judge banging her gavel ]
Judge: Mr. Cirroc, are you ready to give your summation?
Cirroc: [ stepping out] It's just "Cirroc", your Honor.. and, yes, I'm ready. [ approaches the jury box ] Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know - when a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in compensatory damages, and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.
Judge: The jury will now retire to deliberate.
Jury Foreman: [ standing ] Your Honor.. we don't need to retire. Cirroc's words are just as true now as they were in his time. We give him the full amount.
[ the jury applauds Cirroc ]
Judge: Did you hear that, Mr. Cirroc?
Cirroc: [ cell phone to his ear ] Hang on a second.. [ to the judge ] I-I'm sorry, your Honor. I was listening to the magic voices coming out of this strange modern invention! [ smiles maliciously to the camera ]
:thumbup:
Difficult for me not to think of Phil Hartman from SNL. Sorry I couldn't find a good video..
Announcer: [ over SUPER ] "One hundred thousand years ago, a caveman was out hunting on the frozen wastes when he slipped and fell into a crevasse. In 1988, he was discovered by some scientists and thawed out. He then went to law school and became.. Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
Jingle: "He used to be a caveman,
but now he's a lawyer.
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer!"
[ open on interior, courtroom, the Judge banging her gavel ]
Judge: Mr. Cirroc, are you ready to give your summation?
Cirroc: [ stepping out] It's just "Cirroc", your Honor.. and, yes, I'm ready. [ approaches the jury box ] Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know - when a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in compensatory damages, and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.
Judge: The jury will now retire to deliberate.
Jury Foreman: [ standing ] Your Honor.. we don't need to retire. Cirroc's words are just as true now as they were in his time. We give him the full amount.
[ the jury applauds Cirroc ]
Judge: Did you hear that, Mr. Cirroc?
Cirroc: [ cell phone to his ear ] Hang on a second.. [ to the judge ] I-I'm sorry, your Honor. I was listening to the magic voices coming out of this strange modern invention! [ smiles maliciously to the camera ]
:thumbup:
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I personally wouldn't call the break a trick shot and I don't mind regular breaking, but I'll leave that to people with more knowledge to discuss. What is a lot more important is the business of this man which is actually WORKING! Players like it and they don't leave. We all better admit that pool is in deep crisis and the number of players is declining every day. If things stay as they are, in less than a hundred years from now all that will remain of this beautiful game will be a tiny community of true pool players, a completely forgotten relic of the past (something like middle ages swordfighting fans today), and groups of lowest bangers here and there banging in their isolated bars. What we need to do right now is to keep trying new formulas which will keep people in the game and attract new ones. If that means founding new organizations, forming new systems of competition, changing the rules, equipment and tradition, inventing brand new pool games from scratch, then those are our missions. If pool can't survive in this form, then it needs evolution, or even a revolution. A good approach would be focusing on the bangers and the majority of players, find out what they want and build up the pool industry from there. Once we have a huge, strong bottom, we'll have a stable top as well. With all that money coming in the industry from the bangers, and with all the new players joining in, statistically we have to get more top players and professionals.
I use it because it works so well. I use it for all my tournaments and leagues (No Conflict Rules). I have two eyes. I can see what works and what does not. What you advocate leads to cheating, fighting, slow play, and is a waste of time.
I don't know how to be any clearer. When you set up a shot using your hands and a gadget, it is a trick shot. There is plenty of skill in the break without requiring a slop shot or a trick shot that corrupts the game.
Now...please post an Eight-Ball match. That is what we are talking about.
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That is interesting, you may be right, however if both players are run out speed then eventually one will miss and slop a ball in, thus winning a game they shouldn't. At least that's how it seems to me.
Paul CLAIMS it's working, but I don't trust him to be unbiased about this.
Maybe he's just good at running tournaments and people like his events
DESPITE the funky rules, not because of them.
Despite the rep as an experimenter, he doesn't strike me as 100%
forthcoming and openminded. I've never seen him admit he's wrong, or failed at anything,
or even allow that someone else's point of view is valid.
In fact he usually dismisses all other points of view, ignores video evidence, ignores or selectively quotes
arguments that he can't refute, and frequently claims that anyone who doesn't see things his way
"must not be a very good player".
That and the occasional condescending, dismissive language make it hard to trust the guy,
he seems more concerned with being right than saving pool.
[citation needed]
Pool got along fine for centuries with hard and soft breaks, guys trapped in the chair for hours or not,
and both called or uncalled shots.
If we even can confirm pool needs saving and isn't just in some temporarily slump,
it's not going to happen from this type of rule change. The problem is more fundamental
and has to do with image, marketing, and our past mistakes.
If you are the only place in town you can do just about anything you want and get away with it.
In fact the whole NW region of PA is pool room challenged. I visit there often as wife is from Vernango County Pa.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
In fact the whole NW region of PA is pool room challenged. I visit there often as wife is from Vernango County Pa.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Can't believe this is still going on. Bottom line is as long as everyone understands the rules and all the rule changes before the tournament starts. Then you can play by any darn rules you want. There are so many variations for playing the same game in any tournament. I have seen pro's lose a game on a straight in shot because they forgot to call the pocket. I have seen ball in hand awarded because a females hair touched the cue-ball or loose clothing touched a ball. Are those rules right or wrong? Guess they are all right because every players was given those rules. Confusing I am sure to go from one set of rules to another. What about when the bar owner has their own rules. Like no jump or masse? Maybe same league set of rules but they change depending on bar rules.
holy cow...................... after reading the first page of this thread I feel like I was infected with something. My brain started to go numb and I lost the ability to type..
Good thing I have this voice activated keyboard to make my life easier
Maybe we can attach strings to the balls and pull them in the pocket after each shot so we never miss. that would be fun too aye! righto yippy.
Sorry I forgot to take my medicine. I love pool
Good thing I have this voice activated keyboard to make my life easier
Maybe we can attach strings to the balls and pull them in the pocket after each shot so we never miss. that would be fun too aye! righto yippy.
Sorry I forgot to take my medicine. I love pool
I think we need an experiment like having some pool room owner run no conflict ruleset tournaments on a regular basis in one of the major cities for a few months. That would show us if it's a good futuristic concept.
Well, noone can say for sure if pool truly needs saving and how fast, but many things changed comparing to those past centuries. New technologies, games, sports, means of having fun, a new lifestyle and a new mentality. Can pool really stay in competition with the modern world if we change nothing? Only time will tell... Changing a couple of rules doesn't mean much, but it can be a small part of the answer.
We are talking Eight-Ball. This is what this thread is about (not Ten-Ball). Here is Van Boening vs Kiamco. Here is a perfect demonstration. The break is the most critical shot of the game and it is nothing more than a slop shot. Nobody is playing anything. They are reaching back, slamming the balls with the hope that something finds a pocket. You and others write about the called-ball with great pros as though it is a sacred part of the game. At the same time you protect and completely ignore the obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCbzuqNs7iw
I have nothing against the slopped ball. I think that it is wrong minded to start the game with a required slopped ball. Shoot what you break. The ball on the break should mean nothing. Without it, I have found that the players stop cheating, stop arguing, and play faster. The player feels cheated when he breaks dry and he is right. The No Conflict Rules are a good thing all the way around.
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.I wish we could get "everyone in the world" to take notice of pool
Playing "Break & First Shot" rules is a giant step backwards for the integrity of the game imo....and to tell someone on a forum to "stop taking about it" seems silly sense you're the one that keeps bringing it up on here. The game is easy enough with the new rules and equipment they're using these days.
.........and the chances of "me and everyone else in the world" finding out if it works is not going to happen.....I wish we could get "everyone in the world" to take notice of pool, but that's a more than a bit far fetched. (imho).
Playing "Break & First Shot" rules is a giant step backwards for the integrity of the game imo....and to tell someone on a forum to "stop taking about it" seems silly sense you're the one that keeps bringing it up on here. The game is easy enough with the new rules and equipment they're using these days.
.........and the chances of "me and everyone else in the world" finding out if it works is not going to happen.....I wish we could get "everyone in the world" to take notice of pool, but that's a more than a bit far fetched. (imho).
If that is what you see and think after all this time I think I see the major malfunction and it's not with the break...... I had this pegged way ahead of time but the confirmation is appreciated.....
Chris <<<<<<Has spent many 8hour sessions working on nothing but the break and it's not just smash and hope.......
I am not talking about what I do. I am talking about the "duel after the break". You need to promote it and run an event with it. I am not taunting you. I am encouraging you. It is nothing more than an idea and loose talk untill you put it in action. Get to it. It's yours.
No way.
I thought this guy P.S.(Pool Stupid) was just in forum pissing contest. He really is this dumb. With C.J., Chi. museum and others nicely giving P.S. a heads up on how it was and should be done, he still has the balls to defend his disrespectful version of a pool tournament. And this guy owns a room?
I thought this guy P.S.(Pool Stupid) was just in forum pissing contest. He really is this dumb. With C.J., Chi. museum and others nicely giving P.S. a heads up on how it was and should be done, he still has the balls to defend his disrespectful version of a pool tournament. And this guy owns a room?
I guess P.S. feels like Moses coming down from the mountain with the 10 commandments.
At this point I don't know how he deals with 8-ball, I guess I could read the first post.
Let me recap:
In no particular order:
#1 - Dress code and conduct thread.
#2 - No conflict thread
#3 - Pool's fatal flaw thread
#4 - Why is pool broken thread
I'm not sure the last two are P S.'s, because they sound similar.
Just do your thing buddy, as Tony in MD said there may not be a lot to choose from in that area.
Let the rest of us remain ignorant because until you get instructors and leagues and pro's playing by your rules the peanut gallery is a bit skeptical.
I'd still eat a basket of blue cheese jalapeno sliders at your place. Is it in an Amish community? Do you have electricity?
OK I take that last question or two back.
Really though all you've done for years is get people mad and win over PushNPool
At this point I don't know how he deals with 8-ball, I guess I could read the first post.
Let me recap:
In no particular order:
#1 - Dress code and conduct thread.
#2 - No conflict thread
#3 - Pool's fatal flaw thread
#4 - Why is pool broken thread
I'm not sure the last two are P S.'s, because they sound similar.
Just do your thing buddy, as Tony in MD said there may not be a lot to choose from in that area.
Let the rest of us remain ignorant because until you get instructors and leagues and pro's playing by your rules the peanut gallery is a bit skeptical.
I'd still eat a basket of blue cheese jalapeno sliders at your place. Is it in an Amish community? Do you have electricity?
OK I take that last question or two back.
Really though all you've done for years is get people mad and win over PushNPool
I guess P.S. feels like Moses coming down from the mountain with the 10 commandments.
At this point I don't know how he deals with 8-ball, I guess I could read the first post.
Let me recap:
In no particular order:
#1 - Dress code and conduct thread.
#2 - No conflict thread
#3 - Pool's fatal flaw thread
#4 - Why is pool broken thread
I'm not sure the last two are P S.'s, because they sound similar.
Just do your thing buddy, as Tony in MD said there may not be a lot to choose from in that area.
Let the rest of us remain ignorant because until you get instructors and leagues and pro's playing by your rules the peanut gallery is a bit skeptical.
I'd still eat a basket of blue cheese jalapeno sliders at your place. Is it in an Amish community? Do you have electricity?
OK I take that last question or two back.
Really though all you've done for years is get people mad and win over PushNPool
If he got people who want to keep pool in the dark age mad, then he's doing the right thing. If he earned my respect for what he did, it's another plus. Not many people can. But don't think I'm here to defend no conflict rules specifically. They may be a good thing, they may not. What is really important is if it gets new people interested and gives us more players. What I truly appreciate is the idea behind it: someone who has rooms and influence trying out new things and defending them without hesitation. If we had 100 people like that around the world, each of them experimenting with their own theories, one would sooner or later find a formula which could significantly improve pool's current position among sports and games.