Should we basically do away with the break in 8 / 9 / 10ball?

[CreeDo]

Was arguing with Paul Schofield about his "No Conflict" rules in another thread.
For those not familiar: Paul regularly runs successful tournaments in his room, with some unique rules.
One of them is: you shoot after your break even if you don't make a ball.
Obviously this requires an alternate break format.

He already has a poll asking "would you try an event using these rules?"
Let's take it a step further. Would you like to see this rule used in most or all tournaments?
Do you think this would be a good thing for pool?

My feeling is... being able to shoot after the break is almost like just dumping
the balls off the tray onto the table. I hesitate to even call it "breaking".
I'd say this is like removing the break from those games (hence the thread title).

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These are the arguments FOR this format (Paul will correct me if these are off):

• Why make the most important shot in the game, a lucky slop shot?
Why expect players to call shots, except on the one shot that really matters?

• Right now players are very fussy about the racks, good players feel
if they hit the break properly they deserve a shot every time.
If a ball doesn't go in they feel cheated.

So players will agonize over every little gap and that's boring to watch.
They will cry if they don't make a ball.
They will argue the other guy slugged them, or the rack sucks, or there should be magic racks,
or the opponent is helping his own break by putting in a strategic gap.
They debate about whether someone is allowed to touch the rack or ask for reracks.

Under these rules, all of that crying and conflict should evaporate.

• With magic racks, everyone should make a ball more reliably,
but then people complain it's too easy, it's like a "wired trick shot".

• It ensures a fair chance for everyone, obviously it's not very fair if one player never gets to shoot.

• It's more interesting for spectators because they don't have to sit through racking squabbles,
and they get to see both opponents rather than watch one guy keep running out.

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Some arguments AGAINST this format:

• Arguably the break is not slop. We figured out 9b to the point where good players make
their intended ball 90%+. 10b is maybe 70%. 8ball who knows.
So with skill and practice, a player SHOULD get rewarded with a shot after the break.
Shouldn't the player earn their opportunities with skill and practice, rather than get them for free?

• The randomness of the break (that 30% chance in 10b) adds some luck and drama for spectators
and is more exciting than watching a guy just automatically start shooting.

• Good players will probably just start soft breaking if no ball needs to drop.
Watch how Dennis hits the break when he plays the ghost in 10b.
They need to control the 1 in 9-ball or 10-ball. It may encourage pattern racking too.
More boredom for spectators.

• Alternate 'break' takes away the fun and drama of winner breaks where players
can put together packages, and someone far behind can mount an epic comeback.

• Players who have practiced making a ball on the break and learning intricacies of the rack
(Joe Tucker, Corey, Shane, etc.) will not get rewarded for their hard work.
Other players who have put no time into it can be seen as getting unfairly rewarded despite their laziness.

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What do you guys think?

 

[scratchs]

For fun I think one can do what ever..Or if some want to run a tourment a said way..okay.

But I'm not into the..Lets change the game format.

I don't think pool is broken..I do think some involved are broken.

have a good weekend.

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[Dopc]

I vote no. The only exception I can think of would be for American Rotation (which was not a part of the poll). I would not play in any 8, 9 or 10b event that employed the zero conflict rule set .I guess you could say it's zero conflict, because I wouldn't play at all.

Dopc.

 

[Lumocolor]

So players will agonize over every little gap and that's boring to watch.
They will cry if they don't make a ball.
They will argue the other guy slugged them, or the rack sucks, or there should be magic racks,
or the opponent is helping his own break by putting in a strategic gap.
They debate about whether someone is allowed to touch the rack or ask for reracks

I have been watching some old games on youtube lately i watched buddy hall playing earl, loser racked, winner broke, it went hill hill, nobody checked the rack, nobody complained, nobody got slugged.

We have just become a society of whiners.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

A tournament director shouldn't make up rules as he goes along. It only promotes confusion and frustration. :smile:

 

[YubaCushion]

Absolutely not.

You get an unobstructed shot at all 15 balls racked together and you can't make ONE?
No, you don't get another turn. Practice your break.

 

[SMG]

How about just get rid of the game as well?

Winner is the person who can make the most spot shots in a row with the money ball!?!?!?!

 

[brokenhousecue]

Even if the breaking player gets to keep shooting no matter what, they will still want a tight rack because it is much easier to run out with a good spread. Furthermore, it would not eliminate pattern-racking, for the exact same reason.

The only remaining argument for this rule change is that it decreases the amount of 'luck' in the game. This is not a compelling argument to me since there is in fact a lot of skill involved in breaking well (both in terms of making balls and controlling the cue ball).

Out of curiosity, what happens under 'no conflict' rules if you hook yourself behind a ball on the break? What if you scratch?

 

[Pidge]

Does anyone remember Corey beating Mika 11-0? All because of the soft break. Beating another top level pro 11-0 should not happen. The shoot after the break regardless rule is very similar to the soft break...but easier if you ask me. You don't have to make a ball, so players will soon discover a break that spreads the rack and leaves a simple shot on the 1.

I'm sorry but it would ruin pro pool if it were in all tournaments. Even decent amateurs would be able to run out really easily.

The break, especially the 9b break is already becoming too easy for the pros. Watch SVB break...he taps it. Wtf? The tables, cloth, cushions and balls are so responsive they only have to tap the break to get the 3 point rule. I want to see them hammer the crap out of the break like in the old days.

Something has to be done about it, and no conflict rules are not it in my eyes. Its going the wrong way. But atleast the guy is trying something different!

 

[9 ball]

Getting rid of the break in pool is dumb in my opinion cos then it's not pool then it's just like a glorified practice session, similarly if you got rid of the serve in tennis it would be like having a knockabout at your local court.

As for the constant whinging about cracks in the rack like I have said to friends if you want to completely erradicate it you only need 2 things:

1. The Magic Rack

2. If the magic rack is not an option then Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets & then you canno't whinge about cracks in the rack because you will (hopefully) have learned how to combat them & use them to help you.

My point is getting rid of the break is stupid & combating cracks in the rack is ridiculously simple that even a blind chimp could do it without problems.

 

[cardiac kid]

Having played in several of Paul's events, think he has a good idea for this level of play. Pro events? Not so sure.

 

[Pidge]

Letting one player shoot twice is just as unfair. I had what I thought might be a better idea a while back and this is a good thread to bring it up in.

Both players should break from different corners with two different cue balls. Balls pocketed on the break stay down and don't count except the 8, 9, or 10 which are spotted. Then both players continue shooting at the next legal ball if it's rotation or any ball except the 8 if it's 8-ball. The first person to make a ball keeps shooting and the other takes a seat. From that point on the "old fashioned" rules prevail again except for the "deuces wild" exception. Before the break both players draw one card from a standard deck and conceal it. If you drew a deuce you can at any time reveal it once and take the other players turn at the table.

One last thing- you aren't required to call fouls on yourself but if you don't you are an unethical sack of ----.

edit: One last rule I just realized might be needed. The pockets should be widened to 6 1/2" in case both players are shooting at the same pocket. You'll need that much for instances where both players need to cheat the same pocket in order to get that perfect position for the next ball.

What do you think of my idea?

6 1/2 inch pockets? Lol.

Why not just have a gutter running around the entire table, and all you have to do is get a ball in the gutter...just as difficult.

 

[3andstop]

Im the one who said not all three games. Only 9 and 10ball. They should hang one of those chug-a-lug cages they use in carnivals for dice over the pool table, fill it with balls, spin it and then open it up and let the ball fall and bounce all over the table.

It won't do any more harm than jumping shots with those reed bar cues.

As for 8 ball, it should be all called shots. Opening break should be the same as straight pool.

You asked......... :thumbup:

 

[Paul Schofield]

New signiture:
DON'T punish a breaker for NOT slopping in a ball.
DON'T reward him FOR setting up and making a trick shot.


Shoot what you break. There is plenty of skill in that.
The better the player, the better it works.
The break is misunderstood and over-rated.

 

[JolietJames]

I'd like to see it tried in one pro event to see how it goes. It would be fun to see it come down to who shoots the best and plays the best patterns rather than who broke best every match. That's why I enjoy 10ball more than 9. The break is a little less predictable. There was no option for a test run so I voted Not Sure.

 

[Scott Lee]

You're dreaming if you believe that most people make at least one ball on the break with a full rack. Even the top pros don't make a ball on the break every time. During the IPT the average was very low (about 25%) playing 8-ball. The AVERAGE pro makes a ball on the break (in a full rack) about 50-60% of the time. Practicing your break is all well and good, but it still takes some luck, to both make a ball, and have an unobstructed shot at the first ball.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

You get an unobstructed shot at all 15 balls racked together and you can't make ONE?
No, you don't get another turn. Practice your break.

 

[fastone371]

It seems too easy to make balls with a Magic Rack. How about just simple rack your own with a regular rack, time limit if needed on racking or a nuetral person racking the balls and the breaker does not even have the option of walking around the table to see the rack. Just break what you are given. If it is the same for everyone none of the above should matter.

 

[Paul Schofield]

It's time to put 9-ball out to pasture. 10-ball, WPA rules (NOT 10-ball played like 9-ball) is a much better game.

Ok. Now put your words into action. Organize a league with Ten-Ball and come back here and post how it is going. You could also run a local tournament with Ten-Ball and work on growing it and share your results. If you are an instructor, you could use Ten-Ball to introduce people to the game. The ultimate would be to run a pro event and get people to watch and build a gate. Tight pockets and called balls are a must.

 

[RRfireblade]

What do you guys think?

I think its like starting every game by simply tossing balls out on the table and start shooting.....something most people would argue is not even good for practice.

I think its an insult to everyone in the history of the game who has busted their butt working on every part of the game to make themselves a total, complete player, INCLUDING arguably the most important shot.....the break.

Hell...let's just divide the pool table into a uniform numbered grid and assign each ball a specific starting position for each game. Then instead of playing pool, each match can simply be a series of practice drills. Let eliminate all possible 'chance' from the game altogether, even more fun.

No wait....make it so every missed shot requires all balls to be reset to their previous position, wouldn't want any random 'luck' to sneak in there either....that's even MORE common than on the break after all.