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On Target Tips: low deflection and hybrid tips.
- Thread starter Jaden
- Start date
Well...
The first that I suspected that squirt would be reduced was in the design phase, although that wasn't the original intention.
The shaft that I put the first prototype on was a standard deflection shaft that I used with BHE. I had developed an LD shaft that I had for this same cue as well so I have used both BHE with a standard shaft and various LD shafts so I know the difference.
I had the pivot point marked by a ring drawn on the shaft with a sharpie.
When I first put on the prototype I tried to use BHE at the marked pivot point and I missed several shots in a row.
That was the first testing. Once I remembered that I had suspected that squirt might be reduced I switched to using parallel english instead of BHE and I started making everything. Even the long shots by not adjusting for squirt at all.
This was all done at billiards direct on the table that Brandon Gramse uses for his instruction videos. He has a white chaulk line drawn on the table for demonstrating squirt by shooting with parallel english while aiming from center dot to center dot.
The initial prototype actually showed negative squirt due to swerve affecting the final point that the cb hit on the foot rail.
The final production tip (almost at production level) varies in effective squirt reduction based on whether it is a soft, medium or hard tip.
I may even include a super hard. I have already developed a plain super hard tip for jump/break cues due to finding a really good material for it during the development of this tip.
Jaden
The first that I suspected that squirt would be reduced was in the design phase, although that wasn't the original intention.
The shaft that I put the first prototype on was a standard deflection shaft that I used with BHE. I had developed an LD shaft that I had for this same cue as well so I have used both BHE with a standard shaft and various LD shafts so I know the difference.
I had the pivot point marked by a ring drawn on the shaft with a sharpie.
When I first put on the prototype I tried to use BHE at the marked pivot point and I missed several shots in a row.
That was the first testing. Once I remembered that I had suspected that squirt might be reduced I switched to using parallel english instead of BHE and I started making everything. Even the long shots by not adjusting for squirt at all.
This was all done at billiards direct on the table that Brandon Gramse uses for his instruction videos. He has a white chaulk line drawn on the table for demonstrating squirt by shooting with parallel english while aiming from center dot to center dot.
The initial prototype actually showed negative squirt due to swerve affecting the final point that the cb hit on the foot rail.
The final production tip (almost at production level) varies in effective squirt reduction based on whether it is a soft, medium or hard tip.
I may even include a super hard. I have already developed a plain super hard tip for jump/break cues due to finding a really good material for it during the development of this tip.
Jaden
Well,
from my expirience i would say, that *soft tips* SHOULD deflect a bit lesser- but the difference between tips (regarding on softness/hardness) shouldn t make that big difference. I m more than curious about this *kind of tip*
And i would be glad to be able to test these types of tips.
have a smooth stroke.
from my expirience i would say, that *soft tips* SHOULD deflect a bit lesser- but the difference between tips (regarding on softness/hardness) shouldn t make that big difference. I m more than curious about this *kind of tip*
And i would be glad to be able to test these types of tips.
have a smooth stroke.
A harder tip should produce less squirt (AKA cue ball deflection). For more info, see cue tip hardness effects and what causes squirt.
Regards,
Dave
Ok so squirt is created more by the deformation of the tip. So if I am playing right english. It actually compresses the tip and pushes the tip towards the left. So the harder the tip the less compression and contact time with the CB. However due to the hardness of the tip, you may be more likely to miscue. So if one could measure the compression of the tip and create a hard outside layer to the tip. It would help the tip from deforming and a softer tip could be used. Just not sure if that would now make a soft tip a harder tip. Kinda like a super soft tip with a phenolic outside shell. Then the tip could more or less only compress but not deform left and right.
I'm happy the role of tip-CB contact time and the slight variations of it is considered important...
Dave, thank you so much for clearing it up. I think I definitely get what you're saying.
My imagination has a hard time with it though.
So, if an object is moving in a certain direction, collides with something stationary,
and there's 0 friction between them... OR if the moving object is 'infinitely flexible' (our wet noodle)...
then the stationary object moves in the same direction? Even if it's round and was struck off-center?
So if pool balls had no friction, and one ball hits another ball, they'd both just start trucking
in the same direction?
My imagination has a hard time with it though.
So, if an object is moving in a certain direction, collides with something stationary,
and there's 0 friction between them... OR if the moving object is 'infinitely flexible' (our wet noodle)...
then the stationary object moves in the same direction? Even if it's round and was struck off-center?
So if pool balls had no friction, and one ball hits another ball, they'd both just start trucking
in the same direction?
Not true. Squirt (cue ball deflection) is created more by the effective endmass of the shaft. For more info (including illustrations and demonstrations), see:
what causes squirt
and
shaft endmass and stiffness effects
Regards,
Dave
It's only important when it comes to the detailed physics of squirt, not when it comes to what a player can actually do during that incredibly short amount of tip-contact time (see effects of light vs. tight grip and stroke acceleration and tip contact time).I'm happy the role of tip-CB contact time and the slight variations of it is considered important...
Regards,
Dave
You're welcome. I aim to squerve.
Sorry, but that's not correct.
If there were absolutely no friction between the tip and the CB with an off-center hit, the only force between the tip and the CB would be perpendicular to the surfaces (in the "normal" direction). In this case, the CB would head in a direction perpendicular to the CB surface at the tip contact point (... sort of like what happens with a miscue). For example, think of the CB hitting an OB with a cut angle. The balls have very little friction between them. In this case, the OB does not head in the initial CB direction. Instead (neglecting throw, which is caused by the small amount of friction between the balls), the OB heads in the "line of centers" direction, which is perpendicular to the point of contact between the balls. The same would happen with a tip hitting a CB with very little or no friction.
Now, when a well-chalked tip hits a CB off center, the tip grabs the ball with enough friction to prevent any slip between the tip and CB (unless there is a miscue). In this case, because all of the cue momentum is heading forward, the CB also heads forward (neglecting squirt for now). This is possible because the tip grabs the CB enough (without slip) to make this happen.
Again, the physics of squirt is described, illustrated, and demonstrated here: what causes squirt.
I hope things continue to make more sense. If not, continue to let me know.
Catch you later,
Dave
It's only important when it comes to the detailed physics of squirt, not when it comes to what a player can actually do during that incredibly short amount of tip-contact time (see effects of light vs. tight grip and stroke acceleration and tip contact time).
Regards,
Dave
In any case a player's stroking results are indeed affected by that factor and the slight variations of it, so does her/his approach to her/his overall technique. That is why there are preferences between materials, including tips..
Pathetic Shark
Banned
Even phenolic break tips?
... not if they are heavier than the tips to which they are being compared. A heavier tip will definitely create more squirt.
Regardless, most people would not find a phenolic tip suitable for general play.
Regards,
Dave
OK, I think that's where my hangup was...
My original (incorrect) thought process was something like
1. "if a ball hits the cue ball off-center, it cuts the cue ball"
2. "the tip is sort of like a small ball hitting the cue ball off-center"
3. "therefore deflection is just the tip 'cutting' the cue ball."
But you're saying normally there's a lot of friction between the tip and the cue ball,
and this friction prevents the tip from cutting the cue ball?
Instead the cue ball goes in the same direction as the stick (or it would, if it weren't for deflection).
So, is it pretty much EXACTLY the same direction?
Or does the tip actually cut the cue ball a little despite that friction?
Is any part of the deflected path NOT related to rotational force causing that equal & opposite push mentioned earlier?
For example if I wipe the cue tip clean of chalk, and use some slippery tip,
should I expect the cue ball to seemingly deflect more, because it's being "cut" and there's not enough
friction to send it along the stick's shot line?
Exactly!
Bingo.
Yep.
No, unless the tip slips, resulting in a miscue.
Not really; although, tip compression/flex and shaft flex might have some effects as explained in the answer to the 2nd question on the what causes squirt page.
Yes ... a lot more.
By "George" I think you've got it! :thumbup:
Catch you later,
Dave