Actually, if you did that in straight pool... and the table was not interfered with in any way...
then yes, it's a 365 ball run.
Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
- Start date
Actually, if you did that in straight pool... and the table was not interfered with in any way...
then yes, it's a 365 ball run.
This whole thread shows basically in a nutshell what's wrong with pool. Nothing more than a pissing match, my dad can beat up your dad ramblings.
That 9/1p are the game of skill of the sport when in fact 14.1 is. Proof of this because so little play it.
If you need to play for money to step up to the table to prove your skill, you ain't much of a player. If you need money to play, you are playing for the wrong reason. If you can't give it your best when the only thing on line is just bragging rights, doesn't say much for your character. Pool ain't about the money, but that is always what comes across an this old school belief just doesn't cut it no days.
One thing this whole thread really proves, it ain't the system, the nifty little catch phrase, DVD1/2 of anything, it the player.
Hope all that take so much stock in system recognize this truth.
That 9/1p are the game of skill of the sport when in fact 14.1 is. Proof of this because so little play it.
If you need to play for money to step up to the table to prove your skill, you ain't much of a player. If you need money to play, you are playing for the wrong reason. If you can't give it your best when the only thing on line is just bragging rights, doesn't say much for your character. Pool ain't about the money, but that is always what comes across an this old school belief just doesn't cut it no days.
One thing this whole thread really proves, it ain't the system, the nifty little catch phrase, DVD1/2 of anything, it the player.
Hope all that take so much stock in system recognize this truth.
So on that subject of rollout vs. one pocket -
It seems to me rollout's complexity (and I know there is some) mostly happens wrestling for the 1 ball.
Most of the top pros seem to get out once they're on the 3 ball, and in line.
So for many shots, rollout 9b looks like normal (aka 1-foul) 9-ball.
All the break and runs are paint-by-numbers.
Ditto all the dry breaks that lead to runouts.
And all the shots after the 'wrestling' is finished.
So, even if rollout equals 1 pocket's complexity during the 'wrestling phase'...
Once that phase ends, you're just playing normal no-brainer 9 ball. The shooting phase is simple.
And there's usually only 1 wrestling phase... once someone starts running out,
they are supposed to get all the way out. Whereas in 1p, it's routine to make a handful
and then be forced to go into another wrestling phrase.
So I'd say 1p's "wrestling" is much more frequent, and these phases last longer.
You spend a lot more time thinking and planning. To me, that seems like a more strategic game.
Sure, once you're running out it's different, but even that's more difficult running out 9b.
You often need to be creative and play some difficult shots when you have only 3 balls left to shoot
in one pocket. It only gets harder as you pick off the easy balls and move on to the awkward ones.
Whereas in 9b, three balls left is completely routine.
It seems to me rollout's complexity (and I know there is some) mostly happens wrestling for the 1 ball.
Most of the top pros seem to get out once they're on the 3 ball, and in line.
So for many shots, rollout 9b looks like normal (aka 1-foul) 9-ball.
All the break and runs are paint-by-numbers.
Ditto all the dry breaks that lead to runouts.
And all the shots after the 'wrestling' is finished.
So, even if rollout equals 1 pocket's complexity during the 'wrestling phase'...
Once that phase ends, you're just playing normal no-brainer 9 ball. The shooting phase is simple.
And there's usually only 1 wrestling phase... once someone starts running out,
they are supposed to get all the way out. Whereas in 1p, it's routine to make a handful
and then be forced to go into another wrestling phrase.
So I'd say 1p's "wrestling" is much more frequent, and these phases last longer.
You spend a lot more time thinking and planning. To me, that seems like a more strategic game.
Sure, once you're running out it's different, but even that's more difficult running out 9b.
You often need to be creative and play some difficult shots when you have only 3 balls left to shoot
in one pocket. It only gets harder as you pick off the easy balls and move on to the awkward ones.
Whereas in 9b, three balls left is completely routine.
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Now you're talking about One Pocket, right! I'm glad to see that you finally came around and realized the error of your ways. I've had jury duty this week and fell way behind on this thread and may just leave it at that. I think CJ dug a deep enough hole that I might fall in if I get too close.
I guess not as I understand it.
If it is a run out table it is as you describe.
But if not, then the "push-out" phase starts again.
In some ways it looks like it would make it easier. If you come to a shot you cant make, push out to a shot neither can make. Shoot that shot, and if you cant make that one push out again...
.Ugh.
Ken
Please, if you have questions about the event wait for the documentary, I can't answer every question on here, and as far as Jay having "not having a clue," that's ludicrous.
Jay will be featured in the documentary as well. Jay and I occasionally have differences of opinions as all men do, but he knows I have a great deal of respect for him and what he's accomplished in his life....I believe it's mutual.
'The Jay is the Teacher'
Thanks CJ, I feel the same about you. That's why I was dismayed when you started belittling the EXTREMELY difficult game of One Pocket, regarded by most pool players as the toughest game of all. I agree that "two shot" push out 9-Ball is a much better test than "one foul" BIH, but that's how things are today and we need to accept it. I don't like the super fast cloth either, the days of the big stroke are gone.
No question in my mind, that Ten Ball has taken over as the best Rotation game for tournaments. That one extra ball makes ALL the difference! I'm not thrilled about the rules they use, but I'm not gonna b-tch about it forever. :wink:
Say, couple of pretty good zinger's you laid on me there big fella ! :embarrassed2:..Please let me enlighten you on a few things.. Firstly, I don't believe I 'mis-quoted' you at all !...When you started getting too much heat for your indefensible stance on the two games, (1P-9ball)..I know you modified a few posts, to make them more pallatable, for your 'TOI' fans !..I just caught them before you got a chance !..But that's OK, 'creative' editing is not a sin, I've done it a few times myself !
Secondly, I am probably about a 32 handicapper at golf (on a golf course) but I do love to play ! I never had Hank Haney for a golf coach, or I might have learnt gooder !..Now golf on a 6 X 12 snooker table, is/was another story..If you could win at that game, you could win half the money in Denver, San Jose and Phoenix ! (and that would be a decent 'Wiley size' score) ..At that game, I would be about a -10 handicap !
Thirdly, I admit management skills were never my strong suit, however, I have 'managed' to stay in money all my life, as I've always had a job, or a business to support said management deficiencies !.. When I was W.C. (without cash) I had a plethora of people, who would sometimes go to blows, for the privilege of staking me !..
Fourthly, You are grossly mis-informed on my gambling..No one ever got to play any $30 pool with me ! You would be shocked at what I played for, (even adjusting for inflation)..But, I have always left 'bragging' about $$$$ won, (or lost) up to the insecure people, who seem to thrive on it !
Fifthly, You are OK in my book Mr. Wiley !..In my eight decades on this earth,..I've met a lot of people, with a near terminal 'superiority complexes'...You are one of the nicest ! :thumbup:
PS..Our mutual friend, Alfie Taylor, recently reminded me, that he introduced us to each other, when I was in Vegas with him a few years ago..I guess we were "mutually" unimpressed, but I did think you looked familiar !
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View attachment 299076
Dick, I'm glad you added that photo with Alfie. He was kind of a legendary guy/player back in my day. He moved around real good, picking all the right spots. I'm not even sure if I played him in L.A. or not. Seems like we did once, before I knew who he was, at the Billiard Den in Hollywood. I sort of remember playing him to a draw and quitting. I was pretty careful with my bankroll back then and CJ was right about me. I was no San Jose Dick! You played HIGH back then, I remember. I was Toupee Jay, a $5, $10 and $20 player who always seemed to win! I had dough when all our buddies were broke.
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you would be the perfect one to deliver that message.
If you choose to believe that or the world is flat that's your business.
I'll give you the last 5 playing 9 Ball or 10 Ball and you can prove to the world these statements. I'll have it streamed in St. Louis, that's about half way between us and we don't have to bet a quarter, just prove to the world that I can't play using my systems and techniques that I outline and demonstrate at www.cjwiley.com
If you choose to believe that or the world is flat that's your business.
I'll give you the last 5 playing 9 Ball or 10 Ball and you can prove to the world these statements. I'll have it streamed in St. Louis, that's about half way between us and we don't have to bet a quarter, just prove to the world that I can't play using my systems and techniques that I outline and demonstrate at www.cjwiley.com
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I actually break it down to a mathematical formula and can communicate it
10 Ball is better, but not even close to 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball in my opinion. I've played both many times and 9 Ball is far superior.
'Two Shot Shoot Out' has far more variables than One Pocket and is much more difficult as far as average shots used to play the game. We don't "real eyes' that sometimes because we aren't considering all factors.
I actually break it down to a mathematical formula and can communicate it in such a way that all pool players will understand.
There's three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface structure that we see on video, there's the deep structure that we intuitively develop, then there's the subconscious structure that's more like an art form......this is where they use the terms "The Zone," or "Dead Stroke"......it's the ultimate level and that's the one that I will describe in comparing the two games.
On the surface One Pocket appears to have the advantage, but upon deeper investigation it's revealed that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is superior in ways that are certainly not obvious, they're quite will concealed. 'The Game is the Teacher'
10 Ball is better, but not even close to 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball in my opinion. I've played both many times and 9 Ball is far superior.
'Two Shot Shoot Out' has far more variables than One Pocket and is much more difficult as far as average shots used to play the game. We don't "real eyes' that sometimes because we aren't considering all factors.
I actually break it down to a mathematical formula and can communicate it in such a way that all pool players will understand.
There's three levels to pocket billiards, there's the surface structure that we see on video, there's the deep structure that we intuitively develop, then there's the subconscious structure that's more like an art form......this is where they use the terms "The Zone," or "Dead Stroke"......it's the ultimate level and that's the one that I will describe in comparing the two games.
On the surface One Pocket appears to have the advantage, but upon deeper investigation it's revealed that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is superior in ways that are certainly not obvious, they're quite will concealed. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Uh-oh. Religion has now entered the thread. The next stage is coming -- it won't be long before Godwin's Law takes effect.
-Sean <-- I'm outta here [...makes sound like bullet ricochet...]
-Sean <-- I'm outta here [...makes sound like bullet ricochet...]
"sorry old friend, I've went back to the ways of the devil".
Now I remember, thanks, and yes, I love Alfie, he's one of my favorite pool characters. We filmed a documentary that took us from Japan, to Cancun Mexico, and back to Aspen Colorado over the course of a year or so.
Alfie and I have a lot of mutual friends......even Jack
and that's a whole other story. Weldon has some good ones of those two on the road, especially the one that ends with Weldon getting a note from Jack saying "sorry old friend, I've went back to the ways of the devil". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Say, couple of pretty good zinger's you laid on me there big fella ! :embarrassed2:..Please let me enlighten you on a few things.. Firstly, I don't believe I 'mis-quoted' you at all !...When you started getting too much heat for your indefensible stance on the two games, (1P-9ball)..I know you modified a few posts, to make them more pallatable, for your 'TOI' fans !..I just caught them before you got a chance !..But that's OK, 'creative' editing is not a sin, I've done it a few times myself !
Secondly, I am probably about a 32 handicapper at golf (on a golf course) but I do love to play ! I never had Hank Haney for a golf coach, or I might have learnt gooder !..Now golf on a 6 X 12 snooker table, is/was another story..If you could win at that game, you could win half the money in Denver, San Jose and Phoenix ! (and that would be a decent 'Wiley size' score) ..At that game, I would be about a -10 handicap !
Thirdly, I admit management skills were never my strong suit, however, I have 'managed' to stay in money all my life, as I've always had a job, or a business to support said management deficiencies !.. When I was W.C. (without cash) I had a plethora of people, who would sometimes go to blows, for the privilege of staking me !..
Fourthly, You are grossly mis-informed on my gambling..No one ever got to play any $30 pool with me ! You would be shocked at what I played for, (even adjusting for inflation)..But, I have always left 'bragging' about $$$$ won, (or lost) up to the insecure people, who seem to thrive on it !
Fifthly, You are OK in my book Mr. Wiley !..In my eight decades on this earth,..I've met a lot of people, with a near terminal 'superiority complexes'...You are one of the nicest ! :thumbup:
PS..Our mutual friend, Alfie Taylor, recently reminded me, that he introduced us to each other, when I was in Vegas with him a few years ago..I guess we were "mutually" unimpressed, but I did think you looked familiar !
View attachment 299075
View attachment 299076
Now I remember, thanks, and yes, I love Alfie, he's one of my favorite pool characters. We filmed a documentary that took us from Japan, to Cancun Mexico, and back to Aspen Colorado over the course of a year or so.
Alfie and I have a lot of mutual friends......even Jack
and that's a whole other story. Weldon has some good ones of those two on the road, especially the one that ends with Weldon getting a note from Jack saying "sorry old friend, I've went back to the ways of the devil". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Who do you think created pocket billiards? I will give you a hint
Spirituality is a reality, not a religion, and reality is in every thread.....not man's, the Game's reality. Who do you think created pocket billiards? I will give you a hint - "it certainly wasn't human" :groucho:
Spirituality is a reality, not a religion, and reality is in every thread.....not man's, the Game's reality.
Who do you think created pocket billiards? I will give you a hint - "it certainly wasn't human" :groucho:Spirituality is a reality, not a religion, and reality is in every thread.....not man's, the Game's reality.
Was it... the Nazis?
(the end is near!)
Was it... the Nazis?
(the end is near!)
Ha, ha! Beat me to it!:thumbup:
I don't think you guys are going to get anywhere on the 2F9B (two-foul nine-ball) vs. 1P debate at this rate because nobody really knows what they are arguing about. Is the question which one is more "difficult", more strategic, or just plain "superior"?
As far as difficulty goes, there are several facets of difficulty you could choose to look at. CJ, you seem to have chosen average shot difficulty as the metric you'd like to argue. Considering that 9B is primarily about making balls and 1P is mostly about moving balls around the table, I don't even know how you begin to compare the two along those lines. In 1P, you can attempt shots that you would almost never even consider in 9B because you can do it without selling out, but then you also take a bunch of fairly easy shots once someone someone sells out or you make the one crazy shot. If you considered difficulty based on which game is easier to break and run, you'd be saying that 9B is way easier. Although it is easier to accomplish a certain task in one game versus another, say running a rack, it's your opponent that makes it easy or hard to win. 3 ball might be an "easy" game, but playing 3 ball against a pro pool player would not be easy for me.
Which game is more strategic is also a reasonable axis of comparison, but it's really hard to quantify. Both games have a lot of standard shots that I'm sure took a rather strategic-minded person to come up with, but once you've seen them, it doesn't require much thought to know when to use them. Maybe "room for creativity" is a better way of comparing the two. I would probably argue that 1P gives you more options to consider on most shots, if only because you can hit any ball and don't need to make it or completely hide it from your opponent for it to be a good shot.
Finally, the debate over which game is superior. I don't know what is meant by "superior" in this context. Considering that most people play pool for fun, it could just mean the game that is more fun, but that's very subjective. I think both games are more fun than shooting spot shots against someone. YMMV. Even trying to determine which game is a "better test of skill" is a loaded question. Which skill(s)? Banking, kicking, pocketing balls, defense, masse shots, breaking? I think the only way you could argue for one game to be a better test of skill than another is by determining which one involves less luck. In the case of 1P vs 2F9B, the games are so different in nature that it's hard to say. However, if you wanted to compare 2F9B with Texas Express 9-ball, I'm pretty sure we can agree that luck is less of a factor in the two-foul version. Likewise for 10-ball. It you want a game that is almost entire skill, lets go back to the aforementioned spot shot competition. Sure, it's really only one skill (just make the ball), but there's very little luck involved.
Anyhow, I don't think that anyone is going to be able to "prove" anything without being very specific about some facet of the game that they are comparing. When you narrow it down that much, what difference does it make anyhow? You can either find someone who likes the same game you do, talk someone into playing the game you prefer or concede to play their favorite game. Personally, I enjoy playing one pocket more than any form of 9 ball and would rather play 2 foul 9-ball than Texas Express rules, but spend most of my time playing Texas Express 9 ball because that's what's popular.
Good post Matt, maybe the most intelligent one on this thread. It is so subjective as to which game is the more difficult to play well. I have my opinion and so does CJ. Neither of us is "right" or "wrong." The game really is the teacher. I used to say Pool is like life, some days better than others. :smile:
If you choose to believe that or the world is flat that's your business.
I'll give you the last 5 playing 9 Ball or 10 Ball and you can prove to the world these statements. I'll have it streamed in St. Louis, that's about half way between us and we don't have to bet a quarter, just prove to the world that I can't play using my systems and techniques that I outline and demonstrate at www.cjwiley.com
I will be in St. Louis soon because my sister's back from Geneva Switzerland....maybe you can tell her how pitiful she is too, she wrote the book 'Original Sin' (Tatha Wiley) and is one of the most respected theologians in the world.....she also has parkinson's disease, I'm sure you she would like to hear how terrible her brother is and you would be the perfect one to deliver that message.
Peace be in you, Neil, 'Game is your Teacher'
1. You quoted a post of mine to someone else. Why not quote the one directed to you and answer that one?
2. I never said you weren't a great player at one time. In fact, I have said a number of times that you were. I've never had any problem with how you play. Obviously, it worked for you. Read slowly this time so you might understand it (I've only been saying it for a year or two now, and you still don't get it). Playing ability has very little to do with teaching ability. Although one should be somewhat proficient in what one teaches. What I HAVE said, is that what you are teaching does nothing but create other problems for any students that choose to implement them. None ,or almost none, of what you have stated on here gets to the root cause of anyones problems. Only adds more things that can and WILL go wrong. But, you don't even understand the why's of that. Randy G. is close to you, go spend some time with him and he will explain it to you if you really want to learn about teaching pool.
3. You want to play some, you will have to come here. I can't really travel anymore. I've never been scared of playing anyone. Speaking of which, when are you going to take the Billiard University exams that you told Dr. Dave you would take?? Or are you going to keep on dodging it?
4. What in the world has your sister got to do with anything here??? You really having to reach that far just to avoid the real crux of the problem? Do you really think bringing up that she is a theologian gives YOU any points?? I didn't even know you had a sister, and here you are trying to bring in someone with a disability to try and garner some sympathy instead of addressing the real issues.
5. You flat out lied in your previous post that I called you on. You know you did, so does anyone else that has been following your threads. You have repeatedly looked down on and insulted anyone that didn't agree with you. For some reason, you think that having played great at one time puts you above everyone else in everything else in life. News flash for you- it makes you a good player, nothing else. What you fail to understand is that you played great in spite of the way you played, not because of the way you played. There is a rather large difference that you don't begin to understand yet.
6. I'm not the only one on here saying these things. I'm just the most vocal about it. You always dismiss any real questions to you, and then you try and deflect with something not even related to the issue and then try and debate what you made up (like bringing your sister into it). Same tactics English! always used. (didn't work for him either)
7. If you want to come up here and debate actually teaching pool. You are on! But, I know you won't do that because you have yet to answer a single question about anything that isn't what you now teach.
8. At the 2004 Glass City Open, I went 10-8 (lost) with Keith McCready. So, if you think you can give me the 5 out playing 9 ball, well, come on up here and try it. I'm not going anywhere to prove anything to anyone. Unlike you, I don't need to. I say what I mean, and I stand by it. I have nothing to gain by trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. I most likely won't be around in 5-10 years, so I just try and help those that I can. And only put out what I know to be true, factual info. I'm not trying to garner a name for myself or make a few $$ like you seem to be doing. Again, READ that I never said you couldn't play very well at one time. I HAVE stated, and correctly, that you are only a shadow of your former self on the table. And, that is largely due to your "techniques" being as flawed as they are.
Was it... the Nazis?
(the end is near!)
LOL!! Not sure he'll get it.
-Sean <-- humming that song from The Doors, "The End"
You may be right, but that would also be up for a serious debate !..A whole lot would depend on the two players !..But, please
tell me how that has anything at all to do with comparing the difficulty level of the two games ?
SJD
PS..At the risk of being immodest, have you ever seen the DVD of my AccuStat match with Joyner ? (Baton Rouge, 1993)
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/store.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=000509
...I was 65 at the time, and Cliff could probably have given me at least the 6 or 7 in 9 ball !
Why is that? Cause 9 ball was a harder game to learn for you?
LOL!! Not sure he'll get it.
-Sean <-- humming that song from The Doors, "The End"
The end? You mean, OVER?
Was it....was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?!?!?