Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[Matt]

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What people think "if balls aren't dropping in pockets, nothing is going on"? - that makes no sense, everyone knows something's going on when the balls are moving.

This is based on my experience of many people telling me that they "just don't have the patience for one pocket". There's no reason you can't play one pocket at the same pace you play any other game other than the fact that there is usually more to consider. Most non-1P players I know associate progress in a pool game with balls dropping in pockets.

"and also led to the rise of Texas Express rules over 2 fouls 9-ball" - This isn't true at all, Texas Express came several years after 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball was discontinued {only in tournaments, gambling matches were virtually ALL Two Shot Shoot Out}and it was because of the promoter Richie Florence and the Jasco Brothers tournaments......it had nothing at all to do with which rules were better, it was to speed up play, thus speeding up tournaments, and potential TV Shows.

Yes, it is true. The average person wants to see balls going in the pockets because they are impatient and have trouble understanding the intricacies of safety battles. I'm sorry I didn't specify that I was lumping in 1-foul with Texas Express, but I figured you would understand what I was talking about. 9-ball is where it is today because it is faster and potentially marketable to non-players. I don't even feel like your were arguing with me beyond the point where you said "this isn't true at all", so maybe I missed something.

"If you continue down this path of reasoning, you're going to end up being a spokesperson for Texas Express rules"......One of my original partners in the pool room business, JOHN McCHESNEY invented Texas Express rules with Randy G. and Robin A. - again, it was to speed up tournaments, not because the rules were better, on the contrary they KNEW the rules "leveled the playing field" and gave the best players less of an advantage.

'The Facts are the Teacher'

I don't understand your point here. On one hand, you're touting 2-foul 9-ball over one pocket based on the percentage of offensive shots taken, and here you're criticizing Texas Express rules. Is there or is there not a higher percentage of offensive shots in Texas Express 9-ball than 2-foul? That's the line of reasoning I was talking about.

In any case, I agree that 2-foul 9-ball is a better test of skill than Texas Express, and it's not that hard a sell. Everyone in this discussion would probably agree. What I don't understand is how you can classify 9-ball as more difficult than one pocket when the two games are so dissimilar and nobody has beaten either game, just their opponents.

For an example of a game that has been beat, take tic tac toe for example. Played correctly, the player that goes first in tic tac toe cannot lose, and there are plenty of people capable of doing that. I guess the pool equivalent would be something like shooting a ball sitting in the jaws of a pocket with ball in hand. That game would not be worth playing. I think that one pocket and 9-ball (2-foul and even the more luck-based Texas Express 9 ball) are games worth playing.

 

[Matt]

Over the years it's been taken for granted that One Pocket is harder than 9 Ball and it is more difficult than "One Foul Ball in Hand," but it ISN'T more difficult than 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......one foul 9 ball just doesn't have much strategy, you try to run out, or try to play safe......or "kick" to try not to give your opponent "ball in hand".....that's about all there is to it.

No, it hasn't. That's just your strawman for this discussion.

One pocket is a game exemplified by strategy, defense, and creativity.

9-ball (even the 2-foul version) is geared more towards the power shot-maker. 2-foul adds a bit to the strategy, but not enough that an intermediate shot-maker can gain an edge on an excellent shot-maker through strategy and creativity.

Based on your comparison and classification of 9-ball as the "harder" game, it is clear that you consider a game harder if the better shot maker is the favorite. Some people, myself included, don't find that as impressive as a creative 1p player that can clear out multiple balls from their opponents pocket, put balls near their hole, and hook their opponent all in the same shot. Some players can do both, and some can shoot well enough to make up for being less creative.

 

[CJ Wiley]

That makes no sense, and is certainly not factual

Allow me to translate your response.

You got paid what - $5,000 / $10,000 to wear your leather jacket and be the captain of the Mosconi Cup. No reason to look a gift horse in the mouth on the chance, thru self selling, that you are named Mosconi Cup captain again and get the free roll. It would be stupid for you to tell Matchroom they are wrong simply based on potential money in your pocket.

That being said, if your idea for 9 ball is so great - why not make the Mosconi Cup greater by using it. Answer - see above.

That makes no sense, after expenses I actually lost money compared to staying home in Dallas (we get paid far less than what you guessed and Buddy Hall won't be paid at all from what I've heard) The Mosconi Cup isn't about anything other than contributing to the best show currently on European TV and offering assistance.

It was an honor to be chosen because it was a peace offering that mended a past situation between Barry Hearn and myself - I have no desire to be "captain" again, and talked to Johnny Archer about supporting the players in another way - next time I participate in the Mosconi Cup it will be as a player, not a coach. 'The Game is the USA's Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Here's the criteria for the competition between One Pocket and 'Two Shot Shoot Out'

. What I don't understand is how you can classify 9-ball as more difficult than one pocket when the two games are so dissimilar and nobody has beaten either game, just their opponents.

.

The intent of this discussion is to educate people about the strategies of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' relative to One Pocket.

I think this would be very interesting to disclose, however it has sent such shock waves through the one pocket community that they want to post silly cartoons instead of addressing the key issues and discussing specific shots and strategic situations in both games.

.

Meanwhile on onepocket.org......

One of the biggest factors that's being overlooked is how many "two way shots" can be generated playing Two Shot Shoot Out - although they do come up playing One Foul and obviously in One Pocket, in SHOOT OUT there's many more than players "real eyes" - the really advanced players can roll out and shoot a two way shot in ways that are almost unimaginable. I am willing to share how this done and compare it to One Pocket with anyone that wants to represent One Pocket on video/streaming video.

Here's the criteria for the competition between One Pocket and 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball:

{ALL RATINGS ARE DONE ON A "1" to "10" SCALE}
ONE POCKET VS TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT 9 BALL
1) Difficulty of Shot Making - ONE POCKET "4" - SHOOT OUT "6"
2) Difficulty of Cue Ball Position (by length and precision) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
3) Percentage of difficult shots to routine shots (routine pertains to speed, spin and angle) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
4) Required level of stroking power and precision - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT OUT "5"
5) Average difficulty level for shots pocketed - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
6) Average difficulty level for safeties executed - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
7) Average difficulty level for Bank Shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "5"
8) Average speed of shots required - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
9) Average level of English required on all shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "3"
10) Average distance of follow and draw shots required - ONE P. "3" SHOOT O. "5"
11) Average shot length - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
12) Average length of draw and follow shots required - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT O. "4"
TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT WINS BY +12

 

[jimmyg]

The intent of this discussion is to educate people about the strategies of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' relative to One Pocket.

Funny, but I thought that the "intent" of this thread was the following:

HawaiianEye: Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
Aloha folks,

I think an interesting TAR matchup would be C.J. WIley vs Chris Bartram in an "old school 2-shot roll out" game.

I don't know which player is the better shooter at this point in time, but it would be interesting to see the strategies played out in a match like this.

Anybody else out there that would like to see this?

Great Houdini act. :smile:

J

 

[alstl]

Since Efren is only 5 feet tall it seems like a move to try to get him to play on a 10 foot table against a guy a foot or more taller and/or a guy who plays with a 7 foot cue where he would be at a disadvantage.

But I'm curious whether that offer would still stand to play Efren even one pocket on a ten foot table. I have a feeling Efren might be able to find backers for that match.

 

[Icon of Sin]

A few months ago, Mandatory push after the break was the future of pool. We hear nothing of that now.

Now it is two shot shoot out.

I assume we will have another challenge match where a member of the party interested in "two shot shoot out" will lose at his own game and this will be forgotten about just as quick.

The facepalm is the teacher.

 

[Matt]

The intent of this discussion is to educate people about the strategies of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' relative to One Pocket.

I'm all for that. Let's hear it.

So far, it's just been talk of which game involves more aggressive offense and one post about tying up balls.

I have only played roll-out 9-ball a couple times, so I'm curious to see the scenarios in which it takes a veteran of the game to select the right shot.

 

[supergreenman]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Efren was at my pool room when I was playing my best on the 10' table and wouldn't play me even. You can scoff at this all you want, I'm certainly not going to try to stop you, but the facts are the facts.

On a 10' table Efren would have had his hands full playing Earl or me one pocket. On a 9' table we would have needed 8/6, but that's a table you can squeeze someone to death.The way Shane plays right now Efren would NEVER have beaten him playing on a 10' table. Again, you can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
The fact is Efren was never that great off the end rail and his stroke wasn't exactly powerful....of course he could make up for it with his finesse and cue ball control, although on a 10' table that would NOT hold up under the gun.

I have plenty of people that were there, a whole room full as a matter of fact, Roger Griffis was going to go in with me,(Roger played Efren and beat him that night on a 9' table with 10/5) and Tommy Rae was putting up money as well to see me play Efren EVEN on the 10' table. At that time no one would consider playing me even 9 Ball on the 10' table either (one foul or two foul).

The Truth will set you free.

Really? Like really really?

That must be quite the hill you've picked to die on.

Usually people who are called on outlandish statements would have backed down by now in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I would go as far as to say your credibility is taking a hit on this CJ.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I think this would be very interesting to disclose, however it has sent such shock waves through the one pocket community that they want to post silly cartoons instead of addressing the key issues and discussing specific shots and strategic situations in both games.

One of the biggest factors that's being overlooked is how many "two way shots" can be generated playing 2 Shot Shoot Out..the really advanced players can roll out and shoot a two way shot in ways that are almost unimaginable.<--???

The above words, are ALL yours..I just edited out the superfluous stuff, (aka BS) to make it more understandable !..CJ, this is an area, that you REALLY,REALLY,REALLY need to work on !..

The only reason I resorted to 'cartoons', is because your 'know it all' attitude, was not only boring, (and so short-sighted) it became LAUGHABLE !..... YOU sir, are the only "ADVANCED" player, who cannot see how weak, and unsustainable, your argument really is !

Due to your unbelievable stubborness, I am going to again use the 'Coyote/Roadrunner' analogy..until it sinks in, and you come to your senses !....As I said before,..I am here to have fun..NOT to fight windmills. (as will be Wiley Coyote's role FOREVER !)..I could have used
'Tom and Jerry' cartoon's, same analogy..but the name 'Wil-ey', just seemed to fit better !

The Roadrunner

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is why I stipulated "intent of this discussion" instead of "intent of the thread

Funny, but I thought that the "intent" of this thread was the following:



Great Houdini act. :smile:

J

The intent of this discussion is to educate people about the strategies of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' relative to One Pocket.

I think this would be very interesting to disclose, however it has sent such shock waves through the one pocket community that they want to post silly cartoons instead of addressing the key issues and discussing specific shots and strategic situations in both games.
Quote:

This is why I stipulated "intent of this discussion" instead of "intent of this thread" - as you know there are "sub discussions" that develop in threads on this particular forum.

The rules are certainly part of this discussion, as is a streaming video match whether it's TAR or something else. I have offered to debate this on streaming video or on regular video with a 15 minute time limit. I have broken the two games down to themes and variations so my presentation will both be informative and entertaining.

The Rest is up to the "Game".

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Rejection prior to Investigation" is not prudent in Columbus' day or even this day

Really? Like really really?

That must be quite the hill you've picked to die on.

Usually people who are called on outlandish statements would have backed down by now in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I would go as far as to say your credibility is taking a hit on this CJ.

I wonder if Columbus' statements were backed by overwhelming evidence that the world wasn't flat? Though history there's been changes, even in science, to universal beliefs.

Credibility is an illusion and mostly reflects present consensus, however, stating and proving the Truth in systems, techniques and games played by professionals is my primary goal. I also don't expect anyone to agree with me before they know all the facts of the debate parameters.

"Rejection prior to Investigation" is not prudent in Columbus' day or even in this {present} day......things are ALWAYS changing and evolving, so to say something that was true yesterday is absolutely true today is not taking variance into account. 'The Games are the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Keith played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as good as anyone

Thank you for that, it was a good explanation along with a great story by Keith.

Yes, indeed, Keith played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as good as anyone and knew how to create two way shots in nearly all offensive situations. He also played One Pocket in much the same manner, and we've gambled at both games....I have nothing but the highest respect for Keith's game and his ability to win under pressure.

Here's the article from the link posted above by franko in case someone didn't see it.


Tough Rolls

By Keith McCready, InsidePOOL Columnist

The pool industry has weathered some tough rolls over the years. It has accomplished many successes, in many respects, upon entering the international arena as well as acquiring lucrative sponsors, and these endeavors are made possible by the personal contributions of hard-working folks who have a vision and want to take pool to a higher level. I have always wondered, though, how the two-shot/push-out rule from the early '70s changed to the o*ne-foul/ball-in-hand rule used in today's competitions. My guess at that time, it was because the people from the East Coast couldn't beat the people from the West Coast, so they had to change the rule.



For those who may not know what the two-shot/push-out rule is, it goes like this. At any time during the game, you can push the cue ball to anywhere o*n the table that you think you are able to make the shot and your opponent cannot. Your opponent then decides whether or not he wants to shoot this shot. Whoever takes the shot must make a legal hit o*n the object ball without scratching. A legal hit means you must hit the object ball with enough speed to allow the object ball to hit the rail or, if the cue ball hits the rail first and then makes contact with the object ball, the object ball must hit the rail. If no legal hit is executed, then the other player gets ball in hand.
Let me tell you a cute story. There was a high-paying tournament in Memphis, Tennessee, and all of the best "gunfighters" and stake-horses were in attendance. I was about 21 years old, a little green in some ways, but I was virtually unknown in these parts. By the end of the tournament, I already had my target, a local fellow by the name of St. Louis Louie Roberts. Needless to say, he was o*ne of the top players in the world at that time.
After some barking back and forth, the railbirds settled o*n their perches, and it didn't take long for the game to begin. We decided to play a 7-ahead set, meaning o*ne player had to win seven games ahead of the other. Now, Louie was rated as o*ne of the toughest 9-ball players in the world and I was real young and o*n the road, but I had no fear as I raced to the table to flip the coin.
Louie could cut a ball o*n a dime, but what he didn't know was that I was practicing the cut shots myself. So he could not roll out for these really hard cut shots, and if he did, I would either make the shot or leave him safe, instead of letting him shoot, which left him benched more times than not. At the conclusion of each set, Louie would politely excuse himself from the table for a few minutes and played it off as if he was going to wash his hands, and after a period of time, I started breaking him down o*n the strength of the two-shot/push-out rule. We ended up playing four sets of the 7-ahead game, and I won all four.

paragraph deleted ........

In the days of two-shot/push-out, it was harder to beat a good player like St. Louis Louie Roberts. The best player would be forced to out-shoot their opponent in order to win. There would be more offense with your defense. Now there is a lot more luck involved in the game of pool, which I can't stand. If the rules used back in the '70s were in force, I think my game could maybe shine all over again. The victory could, and would, not be won with lucky rolls, and it would force players use their pool-playing skills and God-given talent. The game would not rely o*n the luck factor as much, and we could transform the tournament trail back to where I think it should be: Two-shot/push-out, and let the best player win.

Visit InsidePOOL for the latest techniques from the world of billiards and pool.

 

[Matt]

I wonder if Columbus' statements were backed by overwhelming evidence that the world wasn't flat? Though history there's been changes, even in science, to universal beliefs.

Credibility is an illusion and mostly reflects present consensus, however, stating and proving the Truth in systems, techniques and games played by professionals is my primary goal. I also don't expect anyone to agree with me before they know all the facts of the debate parameters.

"Rejection prior to Investigation" is not prudent in Columbus' day or even in this {present} day......things are ALWAYS changing and evolving, so to say something that was true yesterday is absolutely true today is not taking variance into account. 'The Games are the Teacher'

This is a bit of an aside, but it was already accepted that the earth was round when Columbus set sail. It was actually his misestimation of the circumference of the earth that led him to attempt the journey to Asia.

 

[SJDinPHX]

This is why I stipulated "intent of this discussion" instead of "intent of this thread" - as you know there are "sub discussions" that develop in threads on this particular forum.

Good point, But, as usual, you are moving along so fast you are overlooking valuable "sub-discussions" !...Like this one -->http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4409139&postcount=750 <--
...(and the prior 3-4 posts, which also made excellent observations) :embarrassed2:

You need to calm down, you are looking quite 'frazzled' these days !..I see no need to change the subject to 'Columbus' ?

 

[Woof Biscuit]

I have always wondered, though, how the two-shot/push-out rule from the early '70s changed to the o*ne-foul/ball-in-hand rule used in today's competitions. My guess at that time, it was because the people from the East Coast couldn't beat the people from the West Coast, so they had to change the rule.


That's a strong statement from Keith given that one of the best to have ever played two shot roll out was from NY (Toby Sweet).

I know that Keith knows how good Toby played too. Per Toby, he, Keith and Louie were on the road together living out of a motor home. Maybe Keith means in general with Toby being an exception. By the way, I have only heard Toby say great things about Louie and Keith and their time together.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think this would be very interesting to disclose, however it has sent such shock waves through the one pocket community that they want to post silly cartoons instead of addressing the key issues and discussing specific shots and strategic situations in both games.

lol, you just pegged out my Irony Meter. You -- the king of loading posts with 3rd grade silliness.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The above words, are ALL yours..I just edited out the superfluous stuff, (aka BS) to make it more understandable !..CJ, this is an area, that you REALLY,REALLY,REALLY need to work on !..

The only reason I resorted to 'cartoons', is because your 'know it all' attitude, was not only boring, (and so short-sighted) it became LAUGHABLE !..... YOU sir, are the only "ADVANCED" player, who cannot see how weak, and unsustainable, your argument really is !

Due to your unbelievable stubborness, I am going to again use the 'Coyote/Roadrunner' analogy..until it sinks in, and you come to your senses !....As I said before,..I am here to have fun..NOT to fight windmills. (as will be Wiley Coyote's role FOREVER !)..I could have used
'Tom and Jerry' cartoon's, same analogy..but the name 'Wil-ey', just seemed to fit better !

The Roadrunner

View attachment 299810

Dick, I don't suppose you have noted any similarities between CJ's Papal Infallibility with any other "ain't never wrong, beat everybody" poster we're familiar with?

Lou Figueroa

 

[supergreenman]

I wonder if Columbus' statements were backed by overwhelming evidence that the world wasn't flat? Though history there's been changes, even in science, to universal beliefs.

Credibility is an illusion and mostly reflects present consensus, however, stating and proving the Truth in systems, techniques and games played by professionals is my primary goal. I also don't expect anyone to agree with me before they know all the facts of the debate parameters.

"Rejection prior to Investigation" is not prudent in Columbus' day or even in this {present} day......things are ALWAYS changing and evolving, so to say something that was true yesterday is absolutely true today is not taking variance into account. 'The Games are the Teacher'

What part of my knowledge are you calling into question?

Here are some agreed upon facts:

1. 2 shot 9 ball is harder than texas express
2. The world is round

Wow, short list.

This is where we're worlds apart:

• Earl in his prime could beat Efren in his prime at both 2 shot 9 ball and 1 pocket. I disagree
• 2 shot 9 ball is harder than 1 pocket - I completely disagree

Now I may not be the infamous CJ Wiley, I may not have won a US open, and I have never played you, however, I've played enough different cue sports to know which ones are more difficult than the others.

I was born in Canada, for the longest time if you wanted to play pool here you had to play on a snooker table. (especially if you weren't old enough to get into a bar)

 

[lfigueroa]

FWIW (and I know in CJ's "real eyes" that would be very little), my personal experience was growing up playing nothing but two shot 9ball in California. That and a little 14.1. Later on in life I played nothing but 8ball for four years.

Fast forward years later when I moved to St. Louis and the only game anyone would play was 1pocket. I'd never played a single game of it and for several years I got beat by *everybody* in this city. I had to study and learn for years.

And my opinion is that in terms of brain power and the need to know hundreds of shots and when to shoot them, two shot 9ball is like grammar school. 1pocket is PhD stuff.

Lou Figueroa