TOI vs TOO - CJ vs Mike Sigel

hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
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I went to see Mike Sigel just a few hours ago in a local pool room while he was out promoting his new league, my son was with me and he asked to see how he played.

Even before he got down on his first shot Mike said "I can see you're a real player" by how he approached the table. Which I hope made him feel really good.

After a few shots he gave my son this advice, when shooting with a small to small-medium angle, put some outside english on the ball even if you don't want to spin it, maybe 1/8 of a tip. My son got down on the shots he was not hitting cleanly, and started to hit just about center pocket on the shots he was hitting the point on.

CJ has his Touch Of Inside thing,

Who is right? Sigel is outside, CJ is inside, so confusing! :(

Now, I have not gone though the instruction tapes CJ has, but from his posts on the subject he said to put inside so you know where you are hitting each time, Sigel seemed to show my son the same thing and same theory but with outside spin.
 
Nice to hear Mike worked with your son! Mike and Buddy Hall are both advocates of using outside or running English. These are 2 of the finest American players of our generation. I would listen to Mike!
 
Bottom line! It's personal perception! There is no "right" or wrong! It's called hitting them until you figure out how it looks "right" to you! period!
 
I don't think there is a right way or wrong way; its whatever you're comfortable with. Try them both. I like the TOI because it helps me judge cut angles much better. I tend to miss more when I try the TOO so for me TOI is it. Might not be for the next guy though.
 
This is like the difference between a golfer that "fades" or "draws" the ball

hang-the-9 said:
I went to see Mike Sigel just a few hours ago in a local pool room while he was out promoting his new league, my son was with me and he asked to see how he played.

Even before he got down on his first shot Mike said "I can see you're a real player" by how he approached the table. Which I hope made him feel really good.

After a few shots he gave my son this advice, when shooting with a small to small-medium angle, put some outside english on the ball even if you don't want to spin it, maybe 1/8 of a tip. My son got down on the shots he was not hitting cleanly, and started to hit just about center pocket on the shots he was hitting the point on.

CJ has his Touch Of Inside thing,

Who is right? Sigel is outside, CJ is inside, so confusing! :(

Now, I have not gone though the instruction tapes CJ has, but from his posts on the subject he said to put inside so you know where you are hitting each time, Sigel seemed to show my son the same thing and same theory but with outside spin.
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This is like the difference between a golfer that "fades" the ball, or "draws" the ball. Neither is "right" they're just two ways of playing and becomes a personal preference over time. I use TOI because I'm not a fan of spinning the cue ball unless I have to.

Both are ways to create a "zone" in the pocket so you can align towards the inside part of the pocket. Many players use outside "english" to throw the object ball in the pocket.

The challenge with outside english is it deflects slightly before the spin curves it to "over-cut" the shot slightly. This is ideal in tournament conditions with new cloth, but is tricky on worn cloth, especially in humid conditions.

Another thing about the TOI is it puts what I call "pocket acceptance english" on the object ball which is more receptive to the pocket. When using TOI it's important to hit the cue ball firmly and with TOO this isn't the case because you want the cue ball to spin slightly.

Whether a player goes with a Touch of Outside or the Touch of Inside, the important thing is to "real eyes" that it's better to favor a side than try to use "center ball". Many instructors have been teaching "center ball" for years and it's not the best way to play. When you use "center" you can't create a "pocket zone" so the player is forced to try to hit center pocket and this will limit their development at around a "6" or "7" ....they will hit a "learning wall" and many times not be able to figure out why.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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They are the same technique.

The basic premise is that it is easier to hit slightly left or slightly right of center than it is to hit dead center. Any error will lead to a dead center hit or only slightly more off center than intended. Curve and deflection will be according to the indended english applied (unless you hit the ball really badly).

Error on an intended dead center hit will lead to either left or right english which is undesirable for cue ball control and making the ball because the directions of deflection and curve become more random.
 
I got CJ's TOI and ended up getting bought into using just a touch of English (I had been using more than just a touch) but I ended up using TOO after a long time of trying TOI.

I play a ton of 9 ball and low outside is required for shape so often that TOO makes more sense to me.


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I've heard Jim Rempe on Accu Stats tapes talking about hitting shots with a hair of outside to protect against skids. I've heard others say it as well. Maybe it stems from their 14.1 backgrounds where a lot of balls are hit softly and skids can be most devastating.

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hang-the-9 said:
I went to see Mike Sigel just a few hours ago in a local pool room while he was out promoting his new league, my son was with me and he asked to see how he played.

Even before he got down on his first shot Mike said "I can see you're a real player" by how he approached the table. Which I hope made him feel really good.

After a few shots he gave my son this advice, when shooting with a small to small-medium angle, put some outside english on the ball even if you don't want to spin it, maybe 1/8 of a tip. My son got down on the shots he was not hitting cleanly, and started to hit just about center pocket on the shots he was hitting the point on.

CJ has his Touch Of Inside thing,

Who is right? Sigel is outside, CJ is inside, so confusing! :(

Now, I have not gone though the instruction tapes CJ has, but from his posts on the subject he said to put inside so you know where you are hitting each time, Sigel seemed to show my son the same thing and same theory but with outside spin.
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You need the knowledge of *both* ways. And you need to know both-you will have situations where you need both in a game. Definitley. There is no right of wrong.
Knowledge is real power :-)
 
Ratta is right, we need to be able to hit most shots with all different types of spin. We cant predict what spin would be preferred until we see the shot.

First thing I thought of when I heard about TOI was that it was the opposite way Mike Siegel plays. The way I see it, MIke uses OE to cancel throw(and skids). CJ uses IE to throw balls directly in.
 
Wedge said:
Nice to hear Mike worked with your son! Mike and Buddy Hall are both advocates of using outside or running English. These are 2 of the finest American players of our generation. I would listen to Mike!
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Outside is not running English
 
hang-the-9...I wouldn't listen to either one. There are times when running or reverse english have a "helping" effect on pocketing a ball, but they rare, and to be used sparingly. 90% of the time, sidespin is used for CB position, not pocketing a ball. Teach your son to make balls and get position using vertical axis until he knows it backwards and forwards. Teach him about sidespin, but with the lesson of using it only occasionally, and sparingly. At least both Mike & CJ mention that it's a VERY small amount of english.

Scott Lee
http:poolknowledge.com

Wedge said:
Nice to hear Mike worked with your son! Mike and Buddy Hall are both advocates of using outside or running English. These are 2 of the finest American players of our generation. I would listen to Mike!
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Sloppy Pockets said:
Not when you catch a rail first, but for most angles it usually becomes so when it contacts a rail after hitting the OB first.
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I must respectfully beg to differ. Consider the standard two rail position shot with inside as just one commonly encountered example.
 
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peteypooldude...It certainly can be...it depends on the shot. Running english causes the CB to accelerate off of the cushion. This could be outside or inside spin...it just depends on the shot. This is why good instructors use the terms right and left, or running and reverse, instead of inside and outside. Much easier for people to understand, and they make fewer mistakes.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

peteypooldude said:
Outside is not running English
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Both are important to learn because the cb ends up in a different place with each. This adds two tools to your game. They're both a part of your overall game.

I believe outside English is good to learn first for a young player because throw compensates for cb sticking to ob on contact. Immediate results! But humidity and waxed balls reduces the cb deflection (don't know deflection is most appropriate term). Dirty, grimy balls increases effect. But, this shouldn't be a crutch to use on every shot in your life.

For me, Inside has been more important, because breaking clusters seem to lay better with this spin. Giving me the edge in games when there is a more difficult layout.
 
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