TOI vs TOO - CJ vs Mike Sigel

[CJ Wiley]

Using the 'Touch of Inside' is a great advantage playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'

Ratta is right, we need to be able to hit most shots with all different types of spin. We cant predict what spin would be preferred until we see the shot.

First thing I thought of when I heard about TOI was that it was the opposite way Mike Siegel plays. The way I see it, MIke uses OE to cancel throw(and skids). CJ uses IE to throw balls directly in.

Yes, I favor the inside of the cue ball because it makes the object ball "cut" slightly more. That's why players will (at least) show improvement in their cut shots.....and that's how I started off, (Click for the story of how TOI was first introduced to me), then I discovered that I could use it as the foundation of all my shots.

This way if I missed the cue ball slightly one way I'd still hit "center ball" and if I missed if slightly the other way I'd hit more to the inside and cut the object ball more......either way I was guarding against the undercut......I basically took "Under-cutting" balls out of my "playing equation" and if I missed, it was always to the "Over-cut" side which is often called the "Pro Side"......because your chances of getting "safe" dramatically increase.

Using the 'Touch of Inside' is a great advantage playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' because shot-making is so much more important, you shoot a lot of long, touch shots off the end rail playing that game - that's why I became the best in the world at that particular game.....and it was the premier gambling game of the 70s, 80, and 90s.....players like Cole Dixon, Luther Lassiter and many of the filipino players favor the inside of the cue ball......they call it the "No Spin" side because it comes off the object ball with "No Spin" after contact.....it actually appears to "Float" into position for the next shot.

 

[ChopStick]

After a few shots he gave my son this advice, when shooting with a small to small-medium angle, put some outside english on the ball even if you don't want to spin it, maybe 1/8 of a tip. My son got down on the shots he was not hitting cleanly, and started to hit just about center pocket on the shots he was hitting the point on.

CJ has his Touch Of Inside thing,

Who is right? Sigel is outside, CJ is inside, so confusing!

Now, I have not gone though the instruction tapes CJ has, but from his posts on the subject he said to put inside so you know where you are hitting each time, Sigel seemed to show my son the same thing and same theory but with outside spin.

I am familiar with both methods. If you want to see exactly what he is talking about, setup a striped ball in front of the pocket with the stripe sitting vertical pointed at the pocket. Give yourself a moderate cut angle and shoot the shot with center ball. You will see the stripe will be wobbling going into the pocket. This comes from the friction of contact and it will impart spin energy to both the cue ball and object ball.

Set the shot up again and put just a tad bit of outside running english on the cue ball. At some point the outside english will balance with the friction of collision and the stripe will roll perfectly vertical like an automobile tire rolling down the driveway. In this case all of the spin energy is carried by the cue ball and zero spin energy is carried by the object ball.

Now the TOI method has the opposite effect. 100% of the spin energy is carried by the object ball and zero spin energy is carried by the cue ball. While the TOO method produces a cleaner hit, the resulting spin is more difficult to judge and be consistent with and you are more likely to overrun getting shape than with a cue ball with no spin. The TOI method allows you to be more aggressive and take firmer shots which overcomes the cloth and table effects.

At low speeds TOI can be more difficult to manage and you are more likely to induce a skid because you are increasing the friction at contact. High inside being the worst offender. You have to master the little inside stun shot or don't use it. At higher speeds I prefer the TOI method because I like the aggressive style and for me it produces more consistent results.

I hardly ever use outside spin anymore and when I do it is only a little bit. When you are aligned to the inside, center ball becomes outside english. That is all the outside spin I need to get around. I used to spin the ball with outside on nearly every shot for years. It was quite a revelation to discover that it is not necessary.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Allow Kids have fun, and express themselves through the game with spins & masse's

I am familiar with both methods. If you want to see exactly what he is talking about, setup a striped ball in front of the pocket with the stripe sitting vertical pointed at the pocket. Give yourself a moderate cut angle and shoot the shot with center ball. You will see the stripe will be wobbling going into the pocket. This comes from the friction of contact and it will impart spin energy to both the cue ball and object ball.

Set the shot up again and put just a tad bit of outside running english on the cue ball. At some point the outside english will balance with the friction of collision and the stripe will roll perfectly vertical like an automobile tire rolling down the driveway. In this case all of the spin energy is carried by the cue ball and zero spin energy is carried by the object ball.

Now the TOI method has the opposite effect. 100% of the spin energy is carried by the object ball and zero spin energy is carried by the cue ball. While the TOO method produces a cleaner hit, the resulting spin is more difficult to judge and be consistent with and you are more likely to overrun getting shape than with a cue ball with no spin. The TOI method allows you to be more aggressive and take firmer shots which overcomes the cloth and table effects.

At low speeds TOI can be more difficult to manage and you are more likely to induce a skid because you are increasing the friction at contact. High inside being the worst offender. You have to master the little inside stun shot or don't use it. At higher speeds I prefer the TOI method because I like the aggressive style and for me it produces more consistent results.

I hardly ever use outside spin anymore and when I do it is only a little bit. When you are aligned to the inside, center ball becomes outside english. That is all the outside spin I need to get around. I used to spin the ball with outside on nearly every shot for years. It was quite a revelation to discover that it is not necessary.

That's correct, at lower shot speeds the TOI turns into "Inside English"....TOI is NOT Inside English, although there's a "touch" of spin no matter where you hit the cue ball. When using slower, finesse speeds I show in my TOI Video that you simply pivot to center or "TOO" from your original "TOI Position".....it's very simple, and very easy to do.

As far as addressing the original post and how to approach teaching younger players I'd advise the same thing that Arnold Palmer's father advised him growing up playing golf. Hit OUT at the ball, experiment, create, and learn what spin does to the cue ball. It's easier to "take away" than to "add to" when it comes to spinning the cue ball.

When I was young I could spin the paint off the balls and learned to do all kinds of excessive shots that were impressive in exhibitions, however when I learned to play for money I had to tone that "fancy stuff" down (although I can still do it at will).

Allow Kids have fun, and express themselves through the game of pool.....let them experiment with spins, masse's, so it captures their "Creative Minds"......that's my recommendation, it worked for the champion players it will also work for your "future champion players". 'The Game is Their Teacher'

 

[naji]

I went to see Mike Sigel just a few hours ago in a local pool room while he was out promoting his new league, my son was with me and he asked to see how he played.

Even before he got down on his first shot Mike said "I can see you're a real player" by how he approached the table. Which I hope made him feel really good.

After a few shots he gave my son this advice, when shooting with a small to small-medium angle, put some outside english on the ball even if you don't want to spin it, maybe 1/8 of a tip. My son got down on the shots he was not hitting cleanly, and started to hit just about center pocket on the shots he was hitting the point on.

CJ has his Touch Of Inside thing,

Who is right? Sigel is outside, CJ is inside, so confusing!

Now, I have not gone though the instruction tapes CJ has, but from his posts on the subject he said to put inside so you know where you are hitting each time, Sigel seemed to show my son the same thing and same theory but with outside spin.

Great question, there is no easy answer, it depends on if your son rolling or stunning at time CB contacts OB , and depends on the stroke, if your son follow through a lot, swerve comes into the picture. Also depends on your son's cue , bridge and is he canceling squirt 100% or not.
TOO could get your son in trouble if he stuns OB and not intending to, he will over cut OB. Similarly TOI will under cut if you stun- That is if your son have LD cue.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool's simply a miniature version of these other sports and games.

Nice to hear Mike worked with your son! Mike and Buddy Hall are both advocates of using outside or running English. These are 2 of the finest American players of our generation. I would listen to Mike!

Buddy and I used to practice together and I've played him in many tournaments. One time we played in the finals in two different tournaments in Dallas and Ft. Worth Texas. I've also played Mike Sigel and if you "google" our names you can see some of them on You Tube for FREE.

Buddy and Mike use a "Touch" of outside, they don't call it "running english"....it really isn't english at all, they just "turn" the ball slightly and that's what I do as well.

The whole thing revolves around "feel for the pocket" and you can't get this "feel" or "zone" by hitting center and "aiming" for center.....just like in other sports you use spin to create zones, with topspin in tennis to "fade and slice" in golf.

Pool's simply a miniature version of these other sports and games. Of course you would never relate to that unless having experience in both disciplines. 'The Games are the Teacher'

 

[dawgcpa]

players like Cole Dixon, Luther Lassiter and many of the filipino players favor the inside of the cue ball......they call it the "No Spin" side because it comes off the object ball with "No Spin" after contact.....it actually appears to "Float" into position for the next shot.

In one of the podcasts or Shane's aiming video (can't remember which), he mentions favoring the outside of the ball. If I remember correctly, he mentioned the filipino players and says something about they try to stay away from inside english and always favor outside.

Now, we all know all great players use both but can you elaborate on filipinos who favor inside. I like TOI and would like to watch some of their videos if I can get some names.

Thanks in advance

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI is not inside english.

In one of the podcasts or Shane's aiming video (can't remember which), he mentions favoring the outside of the ball. If I remember correctly, he mentioned the filipino players and says something about they try to stay away from inside english and always favor outside.

Now, we all know all great players use both but can you elaborate on filipinos who favor inside. I like TOI and would like to watch some of their videos if I can get some names.

Thanks in advance

TOI is not inside english....click for more info

 

[One Pocket John]

TOI is not inside english....click for more info

Man CJ, I guess it never ends does it.

For those that may not understand......again. TOI is not inside spin. Its a different center.

Right handed players will favor the right side of the QB, left handed players will favor the left side of the QB. Its just the way it is. Your not going to hit center QB so don't even try.

A TOI will always make you favor the inside of center, left or right handed. Its just a new center ball.

TOI allows the QB to come off the OB at a more natural angle rather than using spin to position the QB for the next shot. you only need to stay on the vertical line of the QB with a very slight, and I repeat very slight use of inside on the QB.

Hope this helps others. Give it w try. :wink:

Have a good day.

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI is simple, it's our minds that make it difficult.

Man CJ, I guess it never ends does it.

For those that may not understand......again. TOI is not inside spin. Its a different center.

Right handed players will favor the right side of the QB, left handed players will favor the left side of the QB. Its just the way it is. Your not going to hit center QB so don't even try.

A TOI will always make you favor the inside of center, left or right handed. Its just a new center ball.

TOI allows the QB to come off the OB at a more natural angle rather than using spin to position the QB for the next shot. you only need to stay on the vertical line of the QB with a very slight, and I repeat very slight use of inside on the QB.

Hope this helps others. Give it w try. :wink:

Have a good day.

John

That's right, John, it's simply a "new center" that's slightly (a touch) inside.....it's funny to see how complicated some people want to make TOI, I can hear them now - "there must be a more difficult way to do it!!!" - we all try to make things more difficult, but TOI makes the game easier if we can "empty our mental cup" and absorb it.

TOI is simple, it's our minds that make it difficult. I can play for hours without missing a ball and simply think "TOI / Accelerate"......that's all there is to it after you put some time into it - the result justifies the time it takes to learn TOI.

I have always recommended using TOI for three straight hours on every shot and the light will flicker and may go on......you will never know unless you try, that's for certain.
The Inner Game is Our Teacher

 

[hang-the-9]

Both are important to learn because the cb ends up in a different place with each. This adds two tools to your game. They're both a part of your overall game.

I believe outside English is good to learn first for a young player because throw compensates for cb sticking to ob on contact. Immediate results! But humidity and waxed balls reduces the cb deflection (don't know deflection is most appropriate term). Dirty, grimy balls increases effect. But, this shouldn't be a crutch to use on every shot in your life.

For me, Inside has been more important, because breaking clusters seem to lay better with this spin. Giving me the edge in games when there is a more difficult layout.

I don't mean using english to affect anything after contact (spinning off the rail, etc..), only to help with cutting the ball in and minimize throw and skids.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"don't use low english"

I don't mean using english to affect anything after contact (spinning off the rail, etc..), only to help with cutting the ball in and minimize throw and skids.

I would not, under any circumstance limit him from enjoying what he can accomplish with spin and/or masse'. This is the fun part of pool and at some point he can always tone it down, however, if he doesn't learn it at an early age it will be very difficult to develop later on down the line.

Kids need freedom to express themselves through the game, or they may lose "learning momentum" if they feel someone is trying to restrict them in any way, shape or form.

I started playing when I was 7 and was running racks on a 9' table at 9 years old....also didn't have anyone give me lessons or advise, other than "don't use low english" and that was not wise.

 

[Straightpool_99]

TOO and TOI are completely different

........................

 

[CJ Wiley]

as you progress you want to learn how to "move" or "work" the cue ball.

Am I the only one that think that these two techniques are not similar at all?

.

They are similar, however one predominantly requires spin to create the "pocket zone" and the other (TOI) uses deflection with less spin. It's arguable which one skids less, I think TOI does because of the higher "shot speed" but have no way of proving this.

Like in golf, the "draw" will have more topspin than a "fade" and, as a result will roll further and cut through the wind better. A fade will fly slightly higher and will land softer, with less roll.

TOI and TOO have similar differences, TOI is more like the "draw" and the TOO is more like the "fade" to me......golfers usually choose one to use predominantly that matches their style and personality.

Also when aligning to the shot you will use the right side of the cue ball to cut an object ball to the right, and TOI is on the right....so there are alignment advantages to using TOI that TOO doesn't have.

The one shot golfers don't use is the straight ball predominantly and I'd recommend pool players don't either......center ball is ok for beginners, but as you progress you want to learn how to "move" or "work" the cue ball.

 

[hang-the-9]

I would not, under any circumstance limit him from enjoying what he can accomplish with spin and/or masse'. This is the fun part of pool and at some point he can always tone it down, however, if he doesn't learn it at an early age it will be very difficult to develop later on down the line.

Kids need freedom to express themselves through the game, or they may lose "learning momentum" if they feel someone is trying to restrict them in any way, shape or form.

I started playing when I was 7 and was running racks on a 9' table at 9 years old....also didn't have anyone give me lessons or advise, other than "don't use low english" and that was not wise.

I'm all for him using spin, and in fact he does a great job with the low right or left spin around 3 rails for shape, the shot Sigel explained to him was only to help pocket a ball not to spin off the rail. Which is what many of the TOI posts seemed to have been about, to give a larger area of a good hit on the cueball. Except Sigel said to use a bit of outside where you like the inside. Sigel said if he hits with inside, he misses by a lot hehe.

Although we were only with him at most 20 minutes, the time he spent with my son I think will really help him progress.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The TOI is basically a "new center" that has margin of error built into the cue ball

I'm all for him using spin, and in fact he does a great job with the low right or left spin around 3 rails for shape, the shot Sigel explained to him was only to help pocket a ball not to spin off the rail. Which is what many of the TOI posts seemed to have been about, to give a larger area of a good hit on the cueball. Except Sigel said to use a bit of outside where you like the inside. Sigel said if he hits with inside, he misses by a lot hehe.

Although we were only with him at most 20 minutes, the time he spent with my son I think will really help him progress.

Yes, again, I would never recommend using "inside english" to pocket a ball, this would not be prudent, and I don't like using spin to pocket a ball either, it brings in variables that aren't necessary.

The TOI is basically a "new center" that has margin of error built into the cue ball targeting that translates out to the object ball/pocket...you can't extend the margin of error on the object ball, you can only do it at the cue ball (because that's what your tip physically touches).....the "side effect" is it allows the player to favor the inside of the pocket.

 

[naji]

This is like the difference between a golfer that "fades" the ball, or "draws" the ball. Neither is "right" they're just two ways of playing and becomes a personal preference over time. I use TOI because I'm not a fan of spinning the cue ball unless I have to.

Both are ways to create a "zone" in the pocket so you can align towards the inside part of the pocket. Many players use outside "english" to throw the object ball in the pocket.

The challenge with outside english is it deflects slightly before the spin curves it to "over-cut" the shot slightly. This is ideal in tournament conditions with new cloth, but is tricky on worn cloth, especially in humid conditions.

Another thing about the TOI is it puts what I call "pocket acceptance english" on the object ball which is more receptive to the pocket. When using TOI it's important to hit the cue ball firmly and with TOO this isn't the case because you want the cue ball to spin slightly.

Whether a player goes with a Touch of Outside or the Touch of Inside, the important thing is to "real eyes" that it's better to favor a side than try to use "center ball". Many instructors have been teaching "center ball" for years and it's not the best way to play. When you use "center" you can't create a "pocket zone" so the player is forced to try to hit center pocket and this will limit their development at around a "6" or "7" ....they will hit a "learning wall" and many times not be able to figure out why.

'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ, IMO, TOI is best thing for 90% of players' natural hands movements if not 100% with standard table cloth and natural cue elevation. TOO would work, but it is against natural stance and one will be forcing the issue.

 

[Neil]

CJ, IMO, TOI is best thing for 90% of players' natural hands movements if not 100% with standard table cloth and natural cue elevation. TOO would work, but it is against natural stance and one will be forcing the issue.

Say what? It's supposed to be TOI to the shot, not to your body. With what you said, if you had a shot to the right, you would have TOO, not TOI.

 

[Type79]

Could someone translate TOI and TOO?

Thanks,
Jay

 

[1shot]

Touch of inside & Touch of outside

C.D.

 

[Bambu]

If you cue to hit off center but hit center instead, there is a chance you can miss the shot. Are those chances generally better if you aim for center, but hit slightly off? I guess it depends on the shot and the player.

I understand the overcut aspect to leave a safe, but not aiming for one spot and hitting another. I would think any pro could hit any spot on the cue ball, any time he wants to. I also don't see why some think its so hard to hit center ball. To me its no more difficult than hitting any other spot, and I'm no pro. I don't say this in a bad way, just thinking out loud here.