My Table Problem: Cushion Help II

pocket

pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Posted this in general was told that this was the correct forum, sorry for the double post.

Bought a 9' used table, guy who did the cloth and level for me said it was 80's era built.

Seller claims rails are artemis.

Problem: ball jumps off rail when hit at speed. Top spin seems to amplify the problem.

I have read a bunch on this, and it seems there are two possibilities.

a) rail height
b)cushion angle

I assume the rails have to be modified to fix this problem (grrr). Can I get an idea on what I am looking at $$ wise for a repair?

Am I right, or at least looking in the right direction, in my internet diagnosis?

I'm going to have my installer come back out and look at solutions, he was leaning toward rail height, I'd just like to be as informed as possible so I don't throw good money after bad.

Table seems to play fine otherwise, as long as I keep the velocity down which is probably a good thing for me.

Thanks for any input.
 
pocket said:
Posted this in general was told that this was the correct forum, sorry for the double post.

Bought a 9' used table, guy who did the cloth and level for me said it was 80's era built.

Seller claims rails are artemis.

Problem: ball jumps off rail when hit at speed. Top spin seems to amplify the problem.

I have read a bunch on this, and it seems there are two possibilities.

a) rail height
b)cushion angle

I assume the rails have to be modified to fix this problem (grrr). Can I get an idea on what I am looking at $$ wise for a repair?

Am I right, or at least looking in the right direction, in my internet diagnosis?

I'm going to have my installer come back out and look at solutions, he was leaning toward rail height, I'd just like to be as informed as possible so I don't throw good money after bad.

Table seems to play fine otherwise, as long as I keep the velocity down which is probably a good thing for me.

Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...

Helps to know what kind of table you're talking about...I'm just saying;)
 
pocket said:
...
I'm going to have my installer come back out and look at solutions, he was leaning toward rail height ...
Click to expand...

I suspect you mean the height of the cushion nose.
That would be the best place to start. Check all 6 rails.
 
My brother in law had that problem with his new olhausen bar box. Con allele? Fixed it. I wonder if they just shim the rails higher.
 
Dartman said:
I suspect you mean the height of the cushion nose.
That would be the best place to start. Check all 6 rails.
Click to expand...

Pretty consistently 1 3/8 all the way around, a few spots maybe a millimeter less. I measured four or five spots on all rails.
 
Without knowing what kind of table this is, it's hard to say what the nose height of the cushions should be. So, how thick are the rails from the bottom to the finished topside? 1 7/16" nose height don't work for all rails, depending on the sub-rail thickness nose heights can very anywhere from 1 1/4" to 1 7/16" and be right...or wrong.
 
Picture

tableoverview_zpsda7e49ff.jpg


Here is a picture if it helps id the table. I will measure the rail height tonight after work.
 
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1 3/8" is low and typically contributes to ball hop.
Just a shot in the dark but I would guess someone put K55 cushions on the table that probably calls for K66. Check your cushion nose to nose measurements and see if you have 50" X 100"
 
Dartman said:
1 3/8" is low and typically contributes to ball hop.
Just a shot in the dark but I would guess someone put K55 cushions on the table that probably calls for K66. Check your cushion nose to nose measurements and see if you have 50" X 100"
Click to expand...

I'm thinking the sub-rails were recut on a table saw to clean up the left over glue, and to install Artemis cushions, as the seller stated they had the Artemis cushions on the rails....but that table didn't come with them new that's for sure. But, K55 in place of K66 would drop the nose height quiet a bit, like about an 1/8"th of an inch.


To the OP, measure the width from the nose of the cushions to the finish of the rails while you're checking how thick the rails are while you're at it.
 
Rail height: 1 11/16
Cushion from nose to rail: 1 7/8

Here is a side view, installer said they were K66 for what that's worth.

photo_zpsca964ef2.jpg
 
OK, now we're getting somewhere...LOL Rails started out with K55 profile cushions to begin with then some dumbshit decided to replace them for what ever reason with K66 profile cushions which is why the measurement across the cushion from nose to finish of the rail is 1/8" short of being 2". So, in the process of switching the cushion profile over, he knew the nose of the cushions was going to be to high, so he carefully recut the bevel of the sub-rail to less of a down angle like about 18-19 degrees but did not cut the sub-rail back at the top where the cushion flushes up with the sub-rails, as that would have for sure widened the playing surface, only problem is...with the back of the K66 cushions starting out at that thick of a subrail combined with a 1 3/8"ths nose height the result is very fast playing cushions, banking short, and bouncy cushions...which will all become worse and worse as the cloth breaks in and wears even more.

Glen
 
pocket said:
Rail height: 1 11/16
Cushion from nose to rail: 1 7/8

Here is a side view, installer said they were K66 for what that's worth.

photo_zpsca964ef2.jpg
Click to expand...

For all you other mechanics....you can see the cushions are to low by the ball wear impact tracking marks left going across the facing...almost level with the point of the pocket, but what would I know....according to some that like to post here...I'm only a little better than a hack when it comes to working on rails....screw all of you...Mark, you to buddy....now which one of you so called table MECHANICS are going to offer to fix this OP's rails the right way????

Glen
 
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realkingcobra said:
OK, now we're getting somewhere...LOL Rails started out with K55 profile cushions to begin with then some dumbshit decided to replace them for what ever reason with K66 profile cushions which is why the measurement across the cushion from nose to finish of the rail is 1/8" short of being 2". So, in the process of switching the cushion profile over, he knew the nose of the cushions was going to be to high, so he carefully recut the bevel of the sub-rail to less of a down angle like about 18-19 degrees but did not cut the sub-rail back at the top where the cushion flushes up with the sub-rails, as that would have for sure widened the playing surface, only problem is...with the back of the K66 cushions starting out at that thick of a subrail combined with a 1 3/8"ths nose height the result is very fast playing cushions, banking short, and bouncy cushions...which will all become worse and worse as the cloth breaks in and wears even more.

Glen
Click to expand...
If he's in the SoCal area, he has plenty of company. :eek:
 
pocket said:
Rail height: 1 11/16
Cushion from nose to rail: 1 7/8

Here is a side view, installer said they were K66 for what that's worth.

photo_zpsca964ef2.jpg
Click to expand...

The cloth is also upside down, which is why you'll see all them little knot balls on the top od the rails cloth and in spots on the playing surface as well....fire the guy that worked on your table, if he can't get the cloth right in the first place....he'll never be able to fix your table right coming back to work on it again and again;)
 
Thank you for taking the time to look.

So I guess its back to my original question. Is this an expensive fix? Something I can do myself? I'm in Southern California, any recommendations on who to talk to?

I'm between a rock and a hard place. It was tough enough to scrape the dollars together to buy this table, I don't want to throw good money after bad, but I also can't pay a premium to have it fixed.
 
pocket said:
Thank you for taking the time to look.

So I guess its back to my original question. Is this an expensive fix? Something I can do myself? I'm in Southern California, any recommendations on who to talk to?

I'm between a rock and a hard place. It was tough enough to scrape the dollars together to buy this table, I don't want to throw good money after bad, but I also can't pay a premium to have it fixed.
Click to expand...

Well, that all depends...you could send them to Mark....the greatest rail mechanic in the country and pay about $1, 300 to get them fixed RIGHT...as he would call it:rolleyes:....or you could contact Donny aka SDBilliards and get a more down to earth price for fixing the rails and correcting the rest of the table right;)

PS Its actually a real easy fix for someone that knows what they're doing.
 
realkingcobra said:
Well, that all depends...you could send them to Mark....the greatest rail mechanic in the country and pay about $1, 300 to get them fixed RIGHT...as he would call it:rolleyes:....or you could contact Donny aka SDBilliards and get a more down to earth price for fixing the rails and correcting the rest of the table right;)

PS Its actually a real easy fix for someone that knows what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Ok, not sure who Mark is or how to contact him, but I will look into Donny at SDBilliards.

Thanks again.
 
you can give me a call. Donny 714-943-7137. If you want to bring the rails to me I'll look at them for no charge. Were in socal are you located?
 
realkingcobra said:
Well, that all depends...you could send them to Mark....the greatest rail mechanic in the country and pay about $1, 300 to get them fixed RIGHT...as he would call it:rolleyes:....or you could contact Donny aka SDBilliards and get a more down to earth price for fixing the rails and correcting the rest of the table right;)

PS Its actually a real easy fix for someone that knows what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Glen.....don't knock my prices and run your mouth....trying to start something again....just cause you charging 500 to steel plate joint slate....when wicking the slates and super glueing them works just fine with no problem what so ever.

If someone ask about cushion or rail work....give them your offer....but don't speak for me...or my prices.
But you are right about one thing for a change...I'm the best rail and cushion guy on AZ Billiards for sure.

Just be a man and offer your services. The same as Donnie just did...I have no problem with someone offer to do work for someone.

500 to steel plate joint a slate.....talk about high prices...WOW....and what a waste of money.

Mark Gregory
 
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