Two-Foul 9 Ball

[CJ Wiley]

The more I watch "one foul" the more I can see why so few enjoy it

You waited 238 posts before finally posting something worthwhile? We could've been friends a long time ago if this had been your second or third post in this thread.

I've never seen 2-foul played in a large tournament setting but it sure would be nice to see. Those guys playing in the Mosconi Cup look like idiots when they have to kick at balls or try to hook someone on a safety. It's like a "bumper cars" version of 9 ball.

ONB

I'm glad we finally convinced you that 2 Shot Shoot Out is the future of professional pool.

The more I watch "one foul" the more I can see why so few enjoy it (fans or players), and even the ones that do watch feel like their eyes have been cheated......or their time has been wasted.

I really like pool, but one foul ball-in-hand is such a poor representation of the Game that it's disturbing. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I'm glad we finally convinced you that 2 Shot Shoot Out is the future of professional pool.

Don't go assuming too much now. Neither you nor an imagined "we" have convinced me of anything. I will think for myself and make my own decisions.

One foul is a horrible way to play 9 ball though, on that we agree.

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

he said without hesitation "they ruined the game!!!".....we all know it,

Don't go assuming too much now. Neither you nor an imagined "we" have convinced me of anything. I will think for myself and make my own decisions.

One foul is a horrible way to play 9 ball though, on that we agree.

ONB

We do agree on that my friend.....and I accept your apology. I was talking to Erman Bollard (legendary player credited to running 24 racks in a row on Steve Gaines) here in Ft. Worth last night and ask "what do you think of one foul rules"....he said without hesitation "they ruined the game!!!".....we all know it, the question is "what are we going to do about it?". 'The Game (Shoot Out) is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

to win at 'Two Shot Shoot Out' a player must be courageous.

While we have CJ here. Have the Mosconi cup organizers ever talked about adding the push.

I'm not sure if "the push" would have made a difference or not this year.....did anyone get lucky off kick shots? How many tough shots were actually made to win? Was it a series of "easy outs" or was the European team playing agressively to "take" the victory?

One foul rules encourages a "no mistake" type game, as opposed to one that is entertaining and courageous....to win at 'Two Shot Shoot Out' a player must be courageous.

 

[rabbitt]

roll down towards rail (lower corner) to have enough of 1ball to play carom to nine ball combo soft enough to make nine or to play safe. What do you think? OLD SCHOOLER grew up playing S.F.bay area.I wish those days and rules never changed...SCOTT aka.RABBITT

 

[rabbitt]

push out, run cue ball down to end rail(right of cue ball) by last diamond.IF you get the shot back you try to bank theone to three -nine combo using H- left to also send cue ball as trailer.If he takes shot maybe he does something else or scratches. Thats my idea..SCOTT aka.Rabbitt OLD school SF bay area, growing up..Thanks for your time

 

[Old Nine Baller]

roll down towards rail (lower corner) to have enough of 1ball to play carom to nine ball combo soft enough to make nine or to play safe. What do you think? OLD SCHOOLER grew up playing S.F.bay area.I wish those days and rules never changed...SCOTT aka.RABBITT

push out, run cue ball down to end rail(right of cue ball) by last diamond.IF you get the shot back you try to bank theone to three -nine combo using H- left to also send cue ball as trailer.If he takes shot maybe he does something else or scratches. Thats my idea..SCOTT aka.Rabbitt OLD school SF bay area, growing up..Thanks for your time

If you are referring to this layout then I don't like any push-out that doesn't pocket the 9 ball. Too much to risk leaving it there.

No charge for the time:wink:

ONB

 

[Colin Colenso]

I've noticed quite a few discrepancies in the descriptions of the 2-Foul game and I thought I'd tell what I know.


ONB

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain 2 foul. I've been trying to work out how it worked and how it would influence the way players play. Now it makes a lot of sense. There's little incentive to play safe when the incoming player can push out. Brilliant.

I'm so tired of watching great players refuse to take on challenging shots. Anything which is a less than 80% chance is avoided. Great way to make sure the highlight packages are slim and unimpressive. (Usually a bunch of jump shots or fluked kick shots)... Thanks ONB

 

[Baby Huey]

One Foul vs. Two Foul Nine Ball

Push out nine ball takes forever to play. I remember matches or rather games where all anyone did was push out to their strength. By that I mean pushing out to bank the ball or to slice it in. The game changed back in the seventies to any foul including not being able to push out after the break. Grady Matthews is instrumental in changing that to pushing out on the break. The no push out rule suits the all around player better. Just watch the Philipinos kick at their ball when hooked. Or watch someone like Mike Deshaine jump his ball. Simply fantastic…

 

[CJ Wiley]

the rules were changed to speed up the tournament and "level" the playing fields.

Now I'm confused. I played push out in the 60's and 70's ( nobody I saw ever gambled at 1 foul ) and jumping was not allowed in the rules of any game. I quit in 1979 when I tore a disk. Dont know when jumping was allowed ( terrible rule, like cleaning the balls during a game! ), but when I started playing in 1988, 1 foul was in, jumping was in, and pushout was out. Sad state of affairs.
In the words of Freddy Boggs, said to his opponent during a 1 pocket game where the opponent was on 2 fouls and said he didnt play 3 fouls, " If you change the rules enough, pool can become ping-pong" ! Thanks Freddy, I've used your line many times...lol

I believe it's clear that the rules were changed to speed up the tournament and "level" the playing fields....at the expense of the integrity of the game.


I used to make fun of bowling because of the lack of strategy and pool turned into the same type scenario......try to make a strike, then try to make a spare....(you either try to run out or "duck" to get ball in hand.......while the opponent "kicks" to try to get lucky).
..'Two Shot Shoot Out' will bring back the shot-making, strategy and passion for the game.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I've just had my first hit at 2 shot push out 9-ball. Makes me realize what a waste of time the last 25 years of 9-ball bang & slop competition has been. That and 10 ball need to be scrapped and this one adopted, and with some luck, the WPA can go down the tube with one shot 9-ball. I'm a convert! Whatever the differences are between some of the contributors here, thanks to y'all for helping to keep alive a format that far surpasses what we've been watching and playing for far too long.

 

[Colin Colenso]

A two part question for those who saw and played this game:

a. Did guys ever play it as a points game, such that each ball pocketed is 1 point, in say races to 50, instead of only 9-ball gets the point.

b. What would be the downside of a point per ball race format? It would seem to me that it would allow the better player to dominate earlier on. Even good players can get out of line, or run into a hard sequence near the end of a rack... would appreciate any opinions on pros and cons of such a format. In my mind, I'd be much more confident playing a lesser player race to 30 balls pocketed, than a race to 7 games (63 balls).

 

[poolplayer2093]

I have been a lurker here for quite awhile and I've been following the 2-Foul vs. 1-Foul comparison threads with much interest. I've noticed quite a few discrepancies in the descriptions of the 2-Foul game and I thought I'd tell what I know.

First of all, "any two" means that BIH is given to the player who does not commit the 2nd consecutive foul. You do not need to be "hooked" to push-out. You can push-out anytime you want for any reason or no reason. All you need to do is commit a foul of any type and your opponent can tell you to "shoot again". If you "scratch" in a pocket and it's the 1st foul, your opponent can tell you to shoot again from behind the headstring or he can take the shot.

Some players liked to play that "all balls made on a foul spot up" but that's not a hard & fast rule. Some liked to play that "all balls made on a foul stay down" but that's up for discussion before playing.

Some liked to play that if you scratched in a pocket for the 1st foul and the lowest numbered ball was behind the headstring then it would spot-up. It would spot up behind any balls already on the footspot.

Some liked to play that only the "ball before the money" spots up on a foul. If you were playing "even" that would mean that if either player made the ball before the 9 and fouled then the ball before the 9 would spot up. Whether or not BIH was awarded was dependent upon whether or not it was the 1st or 2nd foul. Either way, the ball before the 9 would spot up.

When you were giving up "weight" it changed things a little. If you were giving up the 7 ball and your opponent scratched (in a pocket, 1st foul) after making the ball before the 7 you could make him spot it up and shoot at it (behind the line)...but, if you elected to shoot the next shot the ball he made would stay down as it was not the ball before your money ball (9). Either way, 1st or 2nd foul, if you made him shoot again, his ball before his money ball would spot up if he pocketed it and fouled. Also, if you pocketed his "money ball" (7 in this example) and fouled, it would come up on the spot in any case. You could not shoot in his money ball and foul and leave it down.

The "other" way to play "two-foul" was to play "two fouls by the same player is BIH". There are two variations of this game. The 1st is that if you push-out and then I shoot and make a good hit on the object ball your foul is erased.

A few guys liked to play that if you push-out and then I shoot and make a good hit you are still on one foul. That's a rather ridiculous way to play in that it gives the incoming player much too much power.

The entire point of two-foul 9-Ball is that the first player to foul or push-out gives up control of the table (potentially) to his opponent. That's the penalty and it's a tough one. Your penalty for getting out-of-line or making a mistake is possibly giving up control of the table. That's a huge penalty and should be the only penalty in my eyes.

With the one exception of playing "two by the same player" where guys might play you were still on a foul if you pushed-out and I make a good hit, any good hit by either player erased all fouls by both players.

I have seen this point missed on this site so I state it again: any good hit, without a foul occurring, erases any fouls for either player (except as stated above).

C.J. is correct in stating that two-foul 9-Ball is much superior to one-foul 9-Ball. Players, when faced with a tough shot will elect to shoot and take their chances rather than play a safety as you might in one-foul. There is much more offense because of this. Two-Foul is so rich in strategy that you really could write a book about it. A guy may push-out to a bankshot when he's hooked early in a set and you may tell him to "shoot again". Later in the set, with the match on the line he may push-out to the same bank that you've been telling him to shoot but this time you might take the shot. Much thinking and "daring" goes into the two-foul game.

Rarely are there more than one or two push-outs in a game between top players and even more rarely is a BIH given up. Remember, players aren't usually pushing out to a safety because their opponent can play the same one in return. They are usually pushing out to a shot of some type and that makes for a great game of offense. Almost never does a guy play a safety unless there is no option and then his opponent can play the safe and force him to push-out. Two-foul also frees up a player to take chances breaking up clusters or playing "tough" position because he knows he can always push-out if he gets hooked. You'll see many spectacular shots that one-foul players would never even attempt.

I know this is all very confusing to younger players who've grown up accustomed to one-foul BIH rules but two-foul is a much better way to play 9-Ball for a very important reason; it helps you protect your money. It doesn't matter if you are giving weight, getting weight, or playing even, it helps you protect your money. After all, that's the bottom line isn't it? Do you really want to kick at the 7 ball when you can push-out on it? Of course not.

Any questions feel free to ask away.

ONB

Wow broth you play super super old school rules. now days most players play texas express rules. push out only after the break and 3 consecutive fouls means you lose.

i wouldn't bet a penny playing push out any time you want. if i play a good safe i want to be rewarded for it i don't want to lose the game bc all the guy has to do is push out. or tie up the next ball needed to be pocketed or something. just seems like a real scared way to play. 9 balls fun because it's fast and rewards aggression.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain 2 foul. I've been trying to work out how it worked and how it would influence the way players play. Now it makes a lot of sense. There's little incentive to play safe when the incoming player can push out. Brilliant.

I'm so tired of watching great players refuse to take on challenging shots. Anything which is a less than 80% chance is avoided. Great way to make sure the highlight packages are slim and unimpressive. (Usually a bunch of jump shots or fluked kick shots)... Thanks ONB

Wow broth you play super super old school rules. now days most players play texas express rules. push out only after the break and 3 consecutive fouls means you lose.

i wouldn't bet a penny playing push out any time you want. if i play a good safe i want to be rewarded for it i don't want to lose the game bc all the guy has to do is push out. or tie up the next ball needed to be pocketed or something. just seems like a real scared way to play. 9 balls fun because it's fast and rewards aggression.

pp2093,

Generally speaking, you will not be playing safeties to hook me because your incentive is removed as stated in the above post. Instead, many times you will shoot instead of play safe. There is very little safety play in Two-Foul. Every now & then a situation does arise where a few safeties are exchanged but it's when the balls lay bad or are tied up. The safeties are not usually designed to get a BIH but to simply leave your opponent no shot and to get through the inning, that's all.

I believe that 9 Ball is a ball-pocketing, shooters game and if a player wants to win by playing safeties then he should be playing Snooker or One-Pocket. To each his own but One-Foul seems like it gives players a contradictive dual-personality; They play 9-ball because they like the quickness & ball shooting but then they are forced (by percentages) to play many safeties and try to get BIH. This type thinking shortens a player's stroke.

More to the point, you will not lose the game because I push-out. I'm potentially turning the table over to you when I push-out, you can take the shot or pass it back but you don't automatically lose the game because I push-out. I'm going to repeat this; I'm giving up the table to you when I push-out, it's your choice to take it or give it back. You get to think about your choices, it's often a test of wits. How could you not like that?

I understand your sentiment though. You are used to One-Foul and getting BIH all the time, in fact it's probably what you strive for.

Take the reverse of what you like and you'll see how I feel; I don't want to lose a game because you missed a ball and hooked me and I had to hit it or give up BIH and watch you run out. I also don't want to attempt a difficult shot and breakout only to get hooked and lose because I couldn't hit the object ball.

Two-Foul frees up a player to shoot more difficult shots and more difficult breakouts and rarely is there BIH given up unless two total non-players are playing.

Two-Foul is not a scared way to play, in fact, just the opposite is true. One-Foul is for scared players who want to win on 3-fouls in a row or by getting BIH several times per game until they finally run out.

Two-Foul rewards aggression much more than One-Foul. Try it someday before just playing it in your head. I think you'll like the control it gives you over your own fate. Many times you will play entire sets without either player receiving a BIH. Scary eh?

There is much more shooting and offense in Two-Foul than in any other form of 9 ball.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

A two part question for those who saw and played this game:

a. Did guys ever play it as a points game, such that each ball pocketed is 1 point, in say races to 50, instead of only 9-ball gets the point.

b. What would be the downside of a point per ball race format? It would seem to me that it would allow the better player to dominate earlier on. Even good players can get out of line, or run into a hard sequence near the end of a rack... would appreciate any opinions on pros and cons of such a format. In my mind, I'd be much more confident playing a lesser player race to 30 balls pocketed, than a race to 7 games (63 balls).

CC,

(a) Nobody ever played it that way.

(b) The downside is this; There is already a game where you get "a point per ball". It's called 14.1 or Straight-Pool. What incentive would a player have to make the 9 ball if it was worth the same as the 1 ball? There are many players who can run the first 8 balls with consummate precision but then have a problem sinking the 9 ball.

Your reward for your shooting is to get a shot at the 9 and have it win the game for you. What more could a man want?:smile:


ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I believe it's clear that the rules were changed to speed up the tournament and "level" the playing fields....at the expense of the integrity of the game.


I used to make fun of bowling because of the lack of strategy and pool turned into the same type scenario......try to make a strike, then try to make a spare....(you either try to run out or "duck" to get ball in hand.......while the opponent "kicks" to try to get lucky).
..'Two Shot Shoot Out' will bring back the shot-making, strategy and passion for the game.

Jeez CJ, how many times are you going to respond to the same post? Just bored eh?

Why not try to help people understand Two-Foul instead of just promoting it without describing it? You've got the cameras and a camera operator, show some situations and show where you would push-out and tell why. Help the folks out instead of constantly cramming your sales pitch down their throats.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain 2 foul. I've been trying to work out how it worked and how it would influence the way players play. Now it makes a lot of sense. There's little incentive to play safe when the incoming player can push out. Brilliant.

I'm so tired of watching great players refuse to take on challenging shots. Anything which is a less than 80% chance is avoided. Great way to make sure the highlight packages are slim and unimpressive. (Usually a bunch of jump shots or fluked kick shots)... Thanks ONB

You are very welcome for the information and I'm glad you like it. You are right about players only shooting high percentage shots in 1 foul but the rules of the game encourage it. That's the pity of it. When the "smart" thing to do is play safeties instead of "running out" it's no longer a ball-running, offensive game.

ONB

 

[Colin Colenso]

CC,

(a) Nobody ever played it that way.

(b) The downside is this; There is already a game where you get "a point per ball". It's called 14.1 or Straight-Pool. What incentive would a player have to make the 9 ball if it was worth the same as the 1 ball? There are many players who can run the first 8 balls with consummate precision but then have a problem sinking the 9 ball.

Your reward for your shooting is to get a shot at the 9 and have it win the game for you. What more could a man want?:smile:


ONB

Thanks for the reply ONB,

I think you're implying that there is a kind of tension induced drama, which ads to the spectacle when all the build up leads to a crucial moment. Not meaning to put words into your mouth, but I get that aspect of the game's excitement.

Having set up a 9-ball league for bar players, I've seen that drama, but also seen how players basically bang balls around until there's a few left and they think they are a real chance to pot out. The 9 wins doesn't work well at that level.

But I appreciate your input. I'd still like to experiment with rotational points per ball formats. I'm not a fan of 14.1 because it's 90% patience, 10% shot making... I'd almost rather watch paint dry than see a dozen stop shots and dribble throughs, leading to a few crucial shots near the end of each rack.

The version of rotation that I like, is one where two rails must be hit by CB or other balls in addition to the pocketed ball. That's just my idea of what I'd like to see and play. I'm tired of watching dribble shots, stop shots and cosmo outs.

That said, the game you've explained for us here has opened my mind to an approach I've never imagined and for that I'm very grateful. It's a great shame that the matches in the early days aren't available for us to see.

 

[Colin Colenso]

You are very welcome for the information and I'm glad you like it. You are right about players only shooting high percentage shots in 1 foul but the rules of the game encourage it. That's the pity of it. When the "smart" thing to do is play safeties instead of "running out" it's no longer a ball-running, offensive game.

ONB

Spot on! And in addition, most games can be penciled in from the point a pro gets BIH or once they get a decent shot. There's more tension in 8-ball, where the player usually has to deal with obstacles (the opponent's balls) toward the completion of a pot out.

That doesn't make me a big fan of 8 ball, but it's hardly worth watching the last few shots of 9-ball in most games, as the win is 90+% assured by that stage.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Push out nine ball takes forever to play. I remember matches or rather games where all anyone did was push out to their strength. By that I mean pushing out to bank the ball or to slice it in. The game changed back in the seventies to any foul including not being able to push out after the break. Grady Matthews is instrumental in changing that to pushing out on the break. The no push out rule suits the all around player better. Just watch the Philipinos kick at their ball when hooked. Or watch someone like Mike Deshaine jump his ball. Simply fantastic…

Two-Foul 9 Ball does not take forever to play. I don't know where you get something like that from. It's usually quicker than or equal to a 1-Foul game.

You say you remember "games where all anyone did was push out to their strength". Does this mean the opponent kept letting them shoot at their "strength" shots and thereby lost the games? What does this mean? Why would an opponent keep letting a guy shoot at his "strength" shots without taking the shots himself? If two guys are playing they both figure to be an equal speed, no? Why would one have a "strength" the other doesn't have? This doesn't make any kind of sense. You are acting as if the opponent is helpless to do anything when a guy pushes out when the opposite is true. The "pusher" is giving up control of the table to his opponent and only his opponent can decide to give it back to him. The "pushee" is not helpless here. It's his call what he will do.

If you took a poll amongst top players about would they rather "push-out"(two-foul) or "kick"(one-foul) when they are playing for their own money, what do you think they would prefer?

ONB