Throw data and analysis relevant to TOI

[Colin Colenso]

There's been some speculation in discussions regarding TOI as to the effect a touch of inside english has on the throw of the object ball, or cut angle.

This image shows throw data that Dr Dave helped produce for me a few years ago. These plots represent a half ball hit, being cut to the left, hence, the left side indicates inside english and the right side shows outside english. The extremes left and right indicate maximum spinning english.

Moving up and down represents maximum follow and draw english respectively.

The colors represent comparative throw, each change of color represent about 1 inch of throw over 1 yard of travel, relative to the throw we would get with a naturally rolling shot played at medium speed.

The diagrams cover speeds 1 to 5. These are approximately equivalent to 1 table length travel up to 5 table lengths of travel. i.e. From slow to hard.

I'll make some observations regarding IE and touch of IE after posting the pic. Keep in mind that this is for a 1/2 ball hit. I also have charts for full ball, 7/8 ball, 3/4 ball, 1/4 ball and 1/8 ball hits that can be posted if people are interested.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Note that at the higher speeds, a touch of IE reduces the throw, and if one uses any amount of IE, the resulting throw has little variation, regardless of degree of IE or degree of follow or draw. Outside english has comparatively greater variation.

At lower speeds however, a touch of IE can produce large amounts of throw, thickening the pot angle significantly.

 

[Colin Colenso]

3/4 Ball Pots

Most shots we play fall into the 3/4 to full ball angle. I'm attaching the throw plot for a medium firm (3 rating) 3/4 ball shot.

Note that any inside english increases the throw, so a touch of inside throws more than pure center ball stun. This effect is even more dramatic at slower speeds and less dramatic at higher speeds.

Note that throw begins to decrease when more extreme inside english is used. This is because friction is dependent on the relative speeds of the ball surfaces, as well as the directions of spin.

 

[LAMas]

There's been some speculation in discussions regarding TOI as to the effect a touch of inside english has on the throw of the object ball, or cut angle.

This image shows throw data that Dr Dave helped produce for me a few years ago. These plots represent a half ball hit, being cut to the left, hence, the left side indicates inside english and the right side shows outside english. The extremes left and right indicate maximum spinning english.

Moving up and down represents maximum follow and draw english respectively.

The colors represent comparative throw, each change of color represent about 1 inch of throw over 6 feet of travel, relative to the throw we would get with a naturally rolling shot played at medium speed.

The diagrams cover speeds 1 to 5. These are approximately equivalent to 1 table length travel up to 5 table lengths of travel. i.e. From slow to hard.

I'll make some observations regarding IE and touch of IE after posting the pic. Keep in mind that this is for a 1/2 ball hit. I also have charts for full ball, 7/8 ball, 3/4 ball, 1/4 ball and 1/8 ball hits that can be posted if people are interested.

Is the chart on the top left 1 table length and progressing left to right, top to bottom so 5 table length is the lower right chart?

What are the tiny numbers that are color coded...inches?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Is the chart on the top left 1 table length and progressing left to right, top to bottom so 5 table length is the lower right chart?

What are the tiny numbers that are color coded...inches?

The 5 charts, numbered 1 to 5 represent increasing speed of shot. 1 is very slow, where spin differences lead to larger amounts of throw.

The key on the right of each image show how many inches per yard of throw left and right of a medium speed natural rolling pot.

You can kind of imagine each chart to represent where you're hitting the face of the CB, if the OB was an inch away. Obviously a soft stun turns into natural roll, which is top center of the diagrams, after it has traveled a foot or so to the OB.

The lower corners of the charts are basically impossible to achieve as you can't get maximum bottom spin with maximum sidespin, you can only get about 70% of each. However, the top corners are possible, as maximum side can gather natural roll over a distance.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Ah, but inside english can also be used as an aim aid. It helps players to see a nice thick hit on the ball.

Also, CJ is recommending people cut balls at relatively the same speed, which is a harder hit and not a slow speed with increased throw.

Thanks very much for the helpful and insightful analysis.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Ah, but inside english can also be used as an aim aid. It helps players to see a nice thick hit on the ball.

Also, CJ is recommending people cut balls at relatively the same speed, which is a harder hit and not a slow speed with increased throw.

Thanks very much for the helpful and insightful analysis.

You're welcome,

I mentioned on another thread that aligning with a touch of IE may be an aiming aid. That said, I think it's useful for us to consider what the actual physical results are regarding throw at various speeds, cut angles and degrees of spin, because there has been some incorrect conjecture.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Also, CJ is recommending people cut balls at relatively the same speed, which is a harder hit and not a slow speed with increased throw.

It makes sense that CJ advises harder hits for shots using a touch of IE. Slow shots using any degree of IE almost always create the largest amounts of thickening throw. Hence, firmer means they are more manageable.

But, with few exceptions, apart from fine cuts at higher speeds, a touch of inside english increases thickening throw. This should be addressed by CJ, as he's claimed many times that his method helps to reduce the throw, allowing thicker aim but a thinner result.

If his point was that it is an aiming device, rather than a throw effect, I'd see validity in his method, but as currently described, TOI contradicts what has been long established by the experts in physics related to throw effects.

I recognize some advantages in TOI, on particular shots, but in the interest of open discussion, we ought to question all claims.

 

[dr_dave]

It makes sense that CJ advises harder hits for shots using a touch of IE. Slow shots using any degree of IE almost always create the largest amounts of thickening throw. Hence, firmer means they are more manageable.

But, with few exceptions, apart from fine cuts at higher speeds, a touch of inside english increases thickening throw. This should be addressed by CJ, as he's claimed many times that his method helps to reduce the throw, allowing thicker aim but a thinner result.

If his point was that it is an aiming device, rather than a throw effect, I'd see validity in his method, but as currently described, TOI contradicts what has been long established by the experts in physics related to throw effects.

I recognize some advantages in TOI, on particular shots, but in the interest of open discussion, we ought to question all claims.

I think the thicker aim suggested by TOI assumes squirt will create a thinner hit; although, it was my understanding that a "touch" of english is so small that squirt is probably not a significant factor.

I didn't realize throw was part of the discussion, but I agree with you that throw is an important factor for inside vs. outside and for different amounts of english, especially at different speeds. I also agree that inside does not reduce throw for many pool shots (although it does for some).

For those interested, a complete summary of all squirt, swerve, and throw effects, along with supporting resources and demonstrations can be found on the squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think the thicker aim suggested by TOI assumes squirt will create a thinner hit; although, it was my understanding that a "touch" of english is so small that squirt is probably not a significant factor.

Good point Dave,
A touch of IE means that squirt is negligible. I can only guess that the thinning effect is due to aim perception, regarding looking down the cue line from an offset position.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Good point Dave,
A touch of IE means that squirt is negligible. I can only guess that the thinning effect is due to aim perception, regarding looking down the cue line from an offset position.

Using a touch of inside, with a firm stroke as CJ suggests is really a completely different animal.
CB squirt is manageable with a firm stroke and TOI. If you try to spin the CB it reacts differently.

The only problem I see using a TOI is losing some CB control AFTER it contacts the object ball.
I think aim perception is what makes TOI effective. Your aim point is off, but not your perception.
After using TOI for extended periods, your perception of how the CB squirts becomes very clear.

TOI isn't to say that squirt is negligible. What a TOI does is make squirt useful in pocketing balls.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Using a touch of inside, with a firm stroke as CJ suggests is really a completely different animal.
CB squirt is manageable with a firm stroke and TOI. If you try to spin the CB it reacts differently.

The only problem I see using a TOI is losing some CB control AFTER it contacts the object ball.
I think aim perception is what makes TOI effective. Your aim point is off, but not your perception.
After using TOI for extended periods, your perception of how the CB squirts becomes very clear.

TOI isn't to say that squirt is negligible. What a TOI does is make squirt useful in pocketing balls.

If there is a touch of inside, then there is a touch of spin and a touch of squirt and the physics don't lie... on most shots, there will be a touch more undercutting throw.

It's possible that the squirt out weighs the increased throw I guess, but that isn't how the shot has been explained, hence this attempt at clarification.

 

[LAMas]

Using a touch of inside, with a firm stroke as CJ suggests is really a completely different animal.
CB squirt is manageable with a firm stroke and TOI. If you try to spin the CB it reacts differently.

The only problem I see using a TOI is losing some CB control AFTER it contacts the object ball.
I think aim perception is what makes TOI effective. Your aim point is off, but not your perception.
After using TOI for extended periods, your perception of how the CB squirts becomes very clear.

TOI isn't to say that squirt is negligible. What a TOI does is make squirt useful in pocketing balls.

I concur. TOI is useful on certain shots where you want the CB to go downtable after contacting the rail. A range of thick cuts can be effected by aiming at the contact point with TOI...due to a small amount of squirt.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

If there is a touch of inside, then there is a touch of spin and a touch of squirt and the physics don't lie... on most shots, there will be a touch more undercutting throw.

It's possible that the squirt out weighs the increased throw I guess, but that isn't how the shot has been explained, hence this attempt at clarification.

Yes there is a touch of spin... But the trick is trying not to spin the shot. Trying to spin the CB either changes the contact point.. or puts more throw on the OB. I haven't figured out which of those things happens.. maybe they both come into play.

When I first read CJ's posts he said to try TOI exclusively for 3 hours. I did. I was going to give up 'cause I was missing TOO MANY shots, but made a few I knew should not have gone in. I found that TOI hit low and at stop shot speed worked.

After a while I was pocketing just about everything using TOI. Shots aimed toward pocket edges went in surprisingly well. With practice the amount of CB squirt is readily determined, if the CB is hit with authority. Slower shots with spin don't work.

I don't know the physics.. but I know it works. The CB speed is killed significantly when it contacts the OB. I had stated there is some loss of CB control after contacting the OB. For this reason I don't use TOI on every shot.. But I do use it a lot.

Those are my observations. How the shot has been explained has had mixed reviews. I'd say to just hit stop shot speeds at first, and to do it exclusively for a couple of hours to give the shot a chance. If nothing is ventured.. nothing is gained.

Good post Colin.

 

[yankee817299]

I think in CJ's TOI, the firm shot removes the friction between the cue ball and table cloth. I believe this would remove the swerve and throw??? The TOI is so negligible that there is very, very little spin involved. The TOI uses more deflection. Just my observations.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes there is a touch of spin... But the trick is trying not to spin the shot. Trying to spin the CB either changes the contact point.. or puts more throw on the OB. I haven't figured out which of those things happens.. maybe they both come into play.

When I first read CJ's posts he said to try TOI exclusively for 3 hours. I did. I was going to give up 'cause I was missing TOO MANY shots, but made a few I knew should not have gone in. I found that TOI hit low and at stop shot speed worked.

After a while I was pocketing just about everything using TOI. Shots aimed toward pocket edges went in surprisingly well. With practice the amount of CB squirt is readily determined, if the CB is hit with authority. Slower shots with spin don't work.

I don't know the physics.. but I know it works. The CB speed is killed significantly when it contacts the OB. I had stated there is some loss of CB control after contacting the OB. For this reason I don't use TOI on every shot.. But I do use it a lot.

Those are my observations. How the shot has been explained has had mixed reviews. I'd say to just hit stop shot speeds at first, and to do it exclusively for a couple of hours to give the shot a chance. If nothing is ventured.. nothing is gained.

Good post Colin.

Thanks for the feedback Ralph,

I've also spent some time trying out TOI. It's a shot I've avoided like the plague in the past, as I'm aware that it thickens the throw angle on thicker shots.

But having practiced them and adapted to the throw (squirt isn't a problem for me as I use BHE), there are some positional shots which are advantageous. In particular, the forcing stun into the rail, which when played with outside english, often sends the CB much further up table that one would like... which leads to a lot of underplaying of those shots.

Also, pre-aligning slightly inside of center does make those thin cuts feel a bit easier... though I think I'd prefer to stare harder through the center, because there's some guess work (practice may solve), when it comes to adapting to different distances using that method.

TOI is an interesting approach that clearly offers new potential skill sets. My point here is to help sort through some of the what, how and why, instead of a religious faith :wink:

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think in CJ's TOI, the firm shot removes the friction between the cue ball and table cloth. I believe this would remove the swerve and throw??? The TOI is so negligible that there is very, very little spin involved. The TOI uses more deflection. Just my observations.

Yankee, yes, firm shots reduce swerve and throw, but this is true for all spin and stun shots. The TOI does allow a player to hit some shots that bounce off the rail more firmly than other spins would allow. This extra firmness could allow greater consistency in pocketing and CB control on those shots. That's my guess anyway, so we're not far apart.

 

[LAMas]

Yankee, yes, firm shots reduce swerve and throw, but this is true for all spin and stun shots. The TOI does allow a player to hit some shots that bounce off the rail more firmly than other spins would allow. This extra firmness could allow greater consistency in pocketing and CB control on those shots. That's my guess anyway, so we're not far apart.

With the OB near the rail, the CB hits the rail and moves toward the opposite corner pocket resulting in a scratch if hit too hard. That is useful on some shots. TOI is not a panacea for many shots.