DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.

Excuse me Mr. _7days, who lives in "Denial" ?. (is that a city, or a country)..Talk about ANONYMOUS...Joey just might have been referring to YOU !...Like most on here, he sure as hell knows who I am ! (ask him)

It is obvious though Mr._7days, you are VERY good at being an 'anonymous' idiot !..:thumbup: :cool:

PS..Sorry for the mini-hijack Joey, sometimes I just feel the need to prove a point !....Carry on. ;)


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Time for a poll I think =)
 
I LOVED THIS video. Thanks for posting it.

This is the second time I've posted it in this thread.
Pool players are so slow to catch on.
:D

I have a question for those of you who understand snooker language better than I do. At 15:20 Steve Davis is talking about which is better, a longer backswing or a shorter backswing. He then says that if you are too short and too jerky, you may "actually reach for the shot". Can someone precisely explain what Steve means by reaching for the shot?

See around the 18 minute mark of the video below.
In snooker, you do not have to contact a rail, so it has more really short distance shots where you only want to make the slightest of contact.
You also have shots that have to get around that big table, traveling 25 feet or more.

For the short shots, Davis recommends choking up on the cue.
It is the same effect as using a really short cue, you have a stroke of minimal length so you get nothing on the ball.

For power shots, Davis recommends gripping the cue closer to the end of the butt - longer swing of the pendulum, more power when contact is made with the cue ball.

To repeat another video :grin:
More examples - They call it "screw back"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcrQf5MA7E

I assume that when Davis talks about "actually reach for the shot" he means that you misjudge the stroke and try to force it because your cue arm is moving too slowly.

But as I speak neither American nor Brit, I am not the best person to translate for you.
:D

Also at 17:20 he suggests looking at the red instead of the white because they are very close together. (I get that) But does that also mean that on shots where the object ball is further away, that the shooter should look at the white instead of the object ball when shooting? Do snooker players look at the white instead of the red on the last forward swing?

No.

Also noticed that Steve Davis drops his elbow quite frequently when demonstrating some of the shots. :D

Davis is terribly ancient for a tour snooker player, hasn't won anything significant in years, the gremlins have gotten to his technique.

Here is what he was advocating in his prime. :D

The Champions Way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpeZmBrv8bg
1 1/2 hrs
Poor audio, but it has the whole thing in a single file.


Well being English and played league snooker for 35 years.

When Steve mentions reaching for the shot it means pecking or jabbing at the cue ball not following through. On most shots the cue should travel a few inches beyond the cue ball.
 
As far as Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath... I cannot find any video of either playing without looking into the Accu-Stats archives... Teaching and demonstrating vs actual playing would be interesting to see as I have seen players that drop the elbow who would swear they didn't while in play since there was no concentration on eliminating a motion and they were letting their talent not their conscious mind play the game.....

Chris

Chris, FYI Mark doesn't drop. At least I've not seen it and believe me I'm looking for it.

Last time I saw him at the pool hall he came over to the 3C table to play a game when he was done with his lesson. I hadn't seen him for at least a year when he gave me a lesson. I was embarrassed to admit I still had the elbow drop. He said, "Don't be so hard on yourself. I didn't see any drop till after contact."

For me, when I'm well practiced, in full stroke and all is clicking, my elbow drops. Maybe all in my head, but it feels like a smoother stroke through the ball. When I'm having trouble as evidenced by miss cues and other missed tip placements, I practice the pendulum to get my timing and alignment back.

Lately I've been more focused on the pendulum and starting to feel more of the ball than ever before with this stroke. Still seems to be a small lack of power but also seems to be strengthening.

Not sure which way to go but my gut says I'll come back to the drop. But jury is out.
 
Chris, FYI Mark doesn't drop. At least I've not seen it and believe me I'm looking for it.

Last time I saw him at the pool hall he came over to the 3C table to play a game when he was done with his lesson. I hadn't seen him for at least a year when he gave me a lesson. I was embarrassed to admit I still had the elbow drop. He said, "Don't be so hard on yourself. I didn't see any drop till after contact."

For me, when I'm well practiced, in full stroke and all is clicking, my elbow drops. Maybe all in my head, but it feels like a smoother stroke through the ball. When I'm having trouble as evidenced by miss cues and other missed tip placements, I practice the pendulum to get my timing and alignment back.

Lately I've been more focused on the pendulum and starting to feel more of the ball than ever before with this stroke. Still seems to be a small lack of power but also seems to be strengthening.

Not sure which way to go but my gut says I'll come back to the drop. But jury is out.

I have integrated both styles into my game. I think that it gives me the best of both worlds. There's no reason why anyone has to choose one or the other.

Most players are already dropping their elbows on their break shot. Integrating it into other aspects of their game isn't that difficult with a little practice. What you have to figure out is: When is it helpful to drop? That's the key, and one that I won't debate here. I'll be happy to share what I've learned about that with amiable people at the pool table, in person.

The reason I won't debate it here is because there are opinions about it flying all around here by people who haven't taken any decent amount of time to actually experiment with it and study it. It's obvious in their posts.
 
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Fran, When I say I'm not sure which way to go I mean which will dominate.

Studying different techniques is the only thing that keeps me going since there's nobody near me that plays 3C regularly.

Wrist snap, up stroke, stroke slip, slip stroke, swipe, tight grip, loose grip, no grip.......... are all fun to explore and learn from.
 
Well being English and played league snooker for 35 years.

When Steve mentions reaching for the shot it means pecking or jabbing at the cue ball not following through. On most shots the cue should travel a few inches beyond the cue ball.

This is a bit different than what Slasher shared but valuable and appreciated just as his information was.

Maybe I'll meet Steve Davis one day and ask him what he meant by the reaching.

In Slasher's defense, when you do peck or jab at the cue ball and it isn't going far enough and you know it immediately, sometimes you will move the body/shoulder etc as if it is going to nurse the cue ball to move a few more inches. :grin-square: At least I've been accused of doing that on occasion under pressure. Lol

JoeyA
 
Fran, When I say I'm not sure which way to go I mean which will dominate.

Studying different techniques is the only thing that keeps me going since there's nobody near me that plays 3C regularly.

Wrist snap, up stroke, stroke slip, slip stroke, swipe, tight grip, loose grip, no grip.......... are all fun to explore and learn from.

Upstroke? What is that if you don't mind me asking.

JoeyA
 
Upstroke? What is that if you don't mind me asking.

JoeyA

Reach back with your grip hand, Pendulum Stoke = Natural Rocking Up/Down of the tip. Your tip will be rising at contact.

Its similar argument to swiping for spinning Lft or Rt.
 
He still got 5th in the US OPEN when he came back and beat a lot of great players. Kim was also a great money player and matched up with me in Morristown Tenn. at Frank Seal's place. He had me on the ropes for many, many hours, playing flawless pool.

He was also runner up to Mike Sigel in one of the Bicycle Club tournaments and had hight finishes in many Pro tournaments. I believe he won a Major Pro Event in North or South Carolina is seems.....can't remember which one that was, it was around 1986 or 87.

Kim WON many pro tournaments! He was Player Of The Year back in 1989 I believe! Out here, he and Keith dominated everything on the West Coast, along with the great Swanee. Three of the best 9-Ball players in the country were all Californians. Keith and Kim went round and round a million times, each one making the other a better player.
 
Kim WON many pro tournaments! He was Player Of The Year back in 1989 I believe! Out here, he and Keith dominated everything on the West Coast, along with the great Swanee. Three of the best 9-Ball players in the country were all Californians. Keith and Kim went round and round a million times, each one making the other a better player.

... not that wiki is always correct.. but some more info... Kim was a great player through the 80s and 90s and a threat in any event...
Winner of 63 professional tournaments, Davenport has represented the United States as a three-time member and two-time captain of the Team USA at the Mosconi Cup.[1]

2000 and 2001, U.S. Bar Table Champion
1997 and 1990 Sands Regency Nine-ball Championship
1995 PBT Chalker's Nine-ball Classic
1994 PBT Pro Tour Championship
1990 Billiards Digest Player of the Year
1990 Brunswick Challenge Cup
1990 PPPA World Nine-ball Champion
1989 McDermott Masters Champion
1988 Japan Cup
1985 Bowling Green Open
 
It is the same as a top notch pool player, playing with a broom, one handed, no chalk, whatever !..If he is good enough, it doesn't really matter what he uses for a cue !..The unwary pigeon CANNOT win !..Roger helped me win a lot of $$$$, using the same theory playing one pocket, with a crooked house cue, sometimes with NO tip.. (ask Bucktooth. :wink:) [/B][/SIZE]


The following is a true story.

(insert flashback music)

It was a Friday night, back in the early 70's at Town & Country Billiards in Daly City, California. As was my wont, at that period in my callow youth, there I was hitting balls, instead of being out on a date or working on my term paper which was due the following week. But, it was Friday night, the week of school and work was over, I was 19 years old, playing pool, and life was good.

About 10 o'clock, Vince -- a well-known (and well-heeled) mark, walks in the front door of the establishment. Vince was always good for some $5 or $10 9ball, a game I actually played and was semi-proficient at, way back then. As soon as I saw him come in the door, I knew I'd only have a very limited window of opportunity to put him under contract before other, perhaps more enticing (but nonetheless unprofitable for Vince), offers were made by all the usual suspects. And so, with full knowledge that I'd only have one shot at this customer, I opened with what I thought would be a sure-fire automatic deal-closer, "Hey Vince, come on. Let's play some 9ball. You got the eight." Vince didn't miss a beat and shot back, "I ain't playing you with no 8. I want the 6, 7, AND 8 from someone who shoots as straight as you." I instantly knew I had underestimated my man and grossly misplayed my opportunity, so I just weakly rejoined, "Hell! The 6, 7, 8?! I'd play someone with the broomstick with that kind of spot." And then, just like lighting, Vince barked back, "OK. You got the 6, 7, 8, for $20 a game. But you gotta play with the broomstick"

Well. This was a totally unexpected turn of events. The hunter had somehow become the huntee and I was at a sudden loss as to what the appropriate move was. But then, Jerry and Devlin came to my rescue.

Jerry was my wing man on many an adventure. Devlin looked just like Cole Dickson and was just a straight shootin sumbeeatch, about our age, who also hung around. "Play him -- you can win," Devlin said. I was totally not buying it, "Whadda you mean I can win?! Playing with a broomstick?!" Jerry says, "You can do it. Devlin did it against Dennis a few years ago. It's not that tough." Still, I had more than a few doubts. But somehow their complete confidence in our side of the proposition swayed me and I said, "OK. Get the broomstick." I put the eight-point Gina back in its case for the night.

"Hey Stan. We need to borrow your broomstick."

Now for Stan Cleaner, pool hall owner and counter man, this request came as no surprise or shock. He'd seen it all over the years, watching as his teenage charges had grown older, yet no wiser. This was just one more in a long string of inane, nonsensical, nutty things he'd heard from us and so, without much more than a shake of his head, a barely audible sigh, and a slight, bored wave of his hand, he continued reading his paper and said, "It's in the closet."

Stan's broom was standard issue ("Made by the Blind"). Maybe an 1 1/2" diameter blue wood handle and the usual whisks in a tight natural-colored fan pattern. The shape of the end of the handle was actually a pretty good approximation of a regular cue tip, except bigger. *A lot* bigger. "OK, look. You gotta keep it chalked, just like a regular pool cue. Just keep it chalked," Devlin instructed as he sanded the blue enamel off the "tip." I looked at him dubiously.

Vince and I agreed to $20 a game (insert requisite: "That was pretty good action, back then.") Jerry, Devlin, and I quickly formed a consortium, pooling our monies for a grand total of $120. Six barrels. I'd have to come out of the starting blocks fast. The only thing that made this anything less than total lunacy was that Vince was a well-known go-off and if somehow I could prevail, we'd all be on our way on a Vince sponsored excursion to Lake Tahoe, with its siren call of casinos, blackjack tables, and "free" beer, shortly after the conclusion of the match at hand.

We started and right off I could tell: Jerry was right! It wasn't impossible. The hardest part was getting a decent grip on the whisks. And of course you had to play with an open hand bridge. But Vince wasn't that good to begin with and he had a little pooch in him and I'm sure the potential of stories circulating through the pool room -- about him losing to a guy playing with a broomstick -- were floating through his brain.

Vince jars an eight ball. Lou bumps the cue ball towards the eight and wins. Maybe this was not so tough after all.

After about two hours a serious problem began to emerge. It wasn't what was going on on the pool table. I was now getting the hang of it and I was running three, and then four, and the occasional five balls at a time. I was even able to put a little stop shot action on the ball. And, we were now playing for $40 a game. Lou, Jerry, and Devlin, Inc. was up almost $400. The problem was: gripping the broomstick by its whisks the whisks had started to work their way up under my finger nails and my fingers had begun to bleed and started to hurt like hell. Jerry went running behind the counter to get the "Pool Hall Emergency Kit," which consisted entirely of a couple of old Band-Aids and an equally aging bottle of aspirin. We taped up all the fingers on my grip hand and I was good to go.

Well, to cut to the chase, we played into the night and I won just over $800 from Vince (mandatory fine print: "Not a bad score in those days"). To this day, I don't know if the broomstick was conventional or low deflection. All I know is that you can play with a broom stick. But my recommendation is to wear a glove on your grip hand if you're going to do it :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
Kim, Johnny, Earl, David Howard, and John Devinski were the ones that liked to golf

Kim WON many pro tournaments! He was Player Of The Year back in 1989 I believe! Out here, he and Keith dominated everything on the West Coast, along with the great Swanee. Three of the best 9-Ball players in the country were all Californians. Keith and Kim went round and round a million times, each one making the other a better player.

Kim and I used to play golf at a lot of the Pro Events. I remember one time in Vegas we started betting $500. a hole.....that ended up being a lot of fun, (but we missed a lot of short putts). Kim, Johnny, Earl, David Howard, and John Devinski were the ones that liked to mix it up on the golf course. Don Mackey liked to play but most of the players were scared to bet with him.....I wonder why??? :eek:

California did have some great players although so did many other states in the Mid West and West.....Buddy Hall was the best of them all when I came into the Game in the early 80s.....Keith was formidable, with Sigel, Rempe, Mizerak, Hopkins, Reid, Varner, Strickland, West, Martin, Massey, etc
 
Reach back with your grip hand, Pendulum Stoke = Natural Rocking Up/Down of the tip. Your tip will be rising at contact.

Its similar argument to swiping for spinning Lft or Rt.

No, it won't be. This has already been proven on here. With a proper pendulum stroke, the cue is level for several inches before and after contact.

Check out this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=331440
 
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Just got additional confirmation from an English Coach about "reaching".

"With a short backswing it is difficult for the cue tip to go through the ball. This will cause you to extend the stroke (or more likely a poke) to achieve this. The longer the backstroke then the more likely that the cue will stay on your chosen line.

So reaching is in fact, extending the stroke. One of the consequences of this is that the butt of the cue usually drops and the tip pivots upwards . This will cause you to hit the cue ball a little higher than you intended."

Thanks!

JoeyA


So just aim a little lower :thumbup:
 
"the professional will develop a system that can't do it wrong".

Just got additional confirmation from an English Coach about "reaching".

"With a short backswing it is difficult for the cue tip to go through the ball. This will cause you to extend the stroke (or more likely a poke) to achieve this. The longer the backstroke then the more likely that the cue will stay on your chosen line.

So reaching is in fact, extending the stroke. One of the consequences of this is that the butt of the cue usually drops and the tip pivots upwards . This will cause you to hit the cue ball a little higher than you intended."

Thanks!

JoeyA

This won't happen if you have the correct release in your right hand.....the wrist must unhinge properly to generate the acceleration with the TIP staying on the "slot/groove"
railroad-tracks-md.png
.....when done properly it's like a train staying on the tracks and the "side effect" is you'll hit the cue ball straight EVERY TIME....even under severe pressure. "the difference between the amateur and the professional is the amateur will develop a way to do it right and the professional will develop a system that can't do it wrong".....'The Game is the Teacher'

th
 
This won't happen if you have the correct release in your right hand.....the wrist must unhinge properly to generate the acceleration with the TIP staying on the "slot/groove"
railroad-tracks-md.png
.....when done properly it's like a train staying on the tracks and the "side effect" is you'll hit the cue ball straight EVERY TIME....even under severe pressure. "the difference between the amateur and the professional is the amateur will develop a way to do it right and the professional will develop a system that can't do it wrong".....'The Game is the Teacher'

th

CJ,
If you are going to suggest something in a reply to my posts, please elaborate about it in detail rather than leaving things to one's imagination.

For example: "the wrist must unhinge properly to generate the acceleration with the TIP staying on the slot, when done properly it's like a train staying on the tracks and the side effect is you'll hit the cue ball straight every time... even under severe pressure."

At least describe how this is done or your post doesn't make any sense, at least not to me. Others may understand exactly what you are saying but I am having trouble with this. In other words, how does the wrist unhinge properly? Precisely what motions or techniques are you talking about?

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
No, it won't be. This has already been proven on here. With a proper pendulum stroke, the cue is level for several inches before and after contact.

Check out this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=331440

Well Neil, Its not unusual for me to be wrong but I guess either my eyes are deceiving me or my stroke is not perfect. BTW I wear glasses but not while playing and I've already admitted to being a dropper.

Temptation has got the better of me. The model as I understood it didn't exactly do what I said. Bridge length is essentially the same, grip moves back only, during back stoke the butt rises more than normal (unless elbow drops on back swing) on the fore swing the tip must rise as the butt lowers to its original elevation. From this point I don't care what the tip does after contact. Do I? But at contact the tip is rising since the butt is falling. It aint much I'll admit and maybe a worthless technique, but a technique none the less.

If this isn't what happens can you please tell me how to have a level stroke when my arm is stretched out so far?
 
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